Holiday
I *DO* agree that some bidders will "run other bidders up" purely out of
spite (or because their friend is the consignor of the item).
That is where eBay dropped the ball completely, and we already two important
safeguards that correct their mistakes, and it sounds like you don't know
about them, so read on:
1) On eBay, you can place bids designed to run someone up, and if you "go
too far" and "accidentally" outbid them, you can simply retract your last
bid only, and then the other person is the high bid at their limit, and eBay
does nothing to punish people who abuse this!
But in our auctions, we don't give anyone the ability to retract their bids.
Once you bid, you are stuck with it. So that takes away a lot of the
incentive of "running someone up" (unless you are connected with the auction
and know exactly what they are bidding, and then can't lose, as I first
described happens all the time in auctions other than eBay or
eMoviePoster.com).
What happens in those rare cases where someone bids say, $220 instead
of $22? They have to contact us by e-mail or phone, and *WE* retract their
bid. If it is too close to the close of the auction, or if they don't reach
us in time, we cancel the auction and re-list it again, starting at $1.
And we note on their account that they retracted a bid, and if they do
it again we suspend them (the person, not the account, as on eBay). We also
look to see if they bid $220 instead of $22, or did they bid say $325,
instead of the $275 they say they wanted to bid (and of course the high bid
they exposed was $300!).
We want no bidders who "play games" with the bidding, and in fact we
want no bidders at all who can't pay for their items *IN FULL* within two
weeks of the close of the auction. We have been told these are "restrictive
credit terms", but that might help explain why we collect on over 99% of our
items, whereas our competitors list the same items over and over and over,
even though they supposedly "sell" each time!
2) Anonymous bidding: For years, this was a giant hole in eBay's set-up,
because you could track everything a bidder bid on, and any user name
changes people made, so you could quickly identify those who tended to bid
skyhigh, which let spiteful bidders (or shill bidders) know they could
likely run up those bidders quite a bit (and as pointed out above, if they
bid too much they could simply retract that last bid, with no penalty).
eBay changed to an anonymous bidder system, *NOT* to fix the above, but
simply to stop buyers and sellers from making private deals outside eBay.
But of course that has created even more problems, making eBay 'shill bidder
heaven", for the sellers can bid anonymously on their own items, and then
simply file a "non-paying bidder" report on themselves if they get stuck
with the item and pay no fees.
But in our auctions, we let people choose their own ID, and they can change
it as often as they like. Other bidders can't see your previous name, so
someone who is worried about spiteful other bidders running them up can
change their ID as often as they like, even every single auction.
If you have even a hint that others bidders have raised your bids
thinking you will surely bid more, then you should certainly try changing
your ID several times and see if that makes a difference. Of course, if you
only collect say, Jeanette MacDonald, people will likely figure out who you
are, even after a name change, so if you are still worried, even with a new
ID. you should continue to wait for the last 5 minutes to bid.
I am constantly searching for ways to make our auctions even more fair to *
ALL* bidders, because I believe that this will surely ultimately get us the
most bidders, and the most satisfied repeat bidders, which is what we are
after. We never want to make more money off of any item if it requires do
something in the slightest bit dishonerable. Other auctions seem to be
guided by the letter of the law. If they can get away with something, they
do it!
Bruce
On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Holiday Russell <[email protected]> wrote:
> Thanks Bruce. I've always suspected this and that's why even on eBay I
> either use a sniping program or do the equivalent when manually bidding by
> being there as the time runs out. It's not just fear of what can happen on
> the seller side, but also what can happen from competing bidders that get
> spiteful. The can jack up the price is the get a sense that you have a high
> bid in and that they're not going to win. I've done this myself with
> certain competing bidders I do nor like. That said - here's a suggestion
> for you -anonymous bidding. That fixes the problem of spitefulness -
> almost. Even so I would still be there at auction end and bid manually.
> And, it's more fun that way!
>
> Holiday
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> *From:* Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]>
> *Date:* January 9, 2010 8:23:01 AM EST
> *To:* [email protected]
> *Subject:* *[MOPO] Auction houses that can see absentee bids, and the huge
> conflict of interest*
> *Reply-To:* Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]>
>
> When I first started preparing auctions for Christie's in 1990, I told
> them I did not want to know what any absentee bidder had bid on *ANY*item,
> and then told me that this information was
> *HIGHLY* confidential, and never given out in any way. Over the years
> I came to find that this was pretty much an "in name only" policy at every
> auction house I would come in contact with (for example, when I became
> friendly with the owners of several other auctions, they would freely
> volunteer to me what items had high absentee bids, and how much, when I
> would show up in person at the preview on the day of the auction).
>
> Obviously, this is a huge conflict of interest! If the auction owner tells
> me in passing that someone placed a $9,000 absentee bid on a $1,000 item the
> morning of the auction, I can later go to that auction and, with an absolute
> certainty, bid up to $8,500, *KNOWING* I will be outbid. Of course, that
> may well mean the absentee bidder pays $9,000 instead of maybe $5,000 (or
> $3,000, or $1,000), but the auction house makes a lot of extra commissions,
> and they get the prestige of selling an item for a sky-high price, and it is
> a "perfect" crime, for there is no way for them to get caught, and there is
> no paper trail whatsoever (they can say a "floor bidder" was the
> underbidder, and they don't even have to have a record of who that bidder
> was).
>
> I detested this, and never took any part in it in any way (either as an
> auctioneer or as a consignor), but saw it happen with regularity in auction
> after auction, and it made me sick. When I switched my major auctions from
> Christie's to Howard Lowery, one of the biggest draws for me in doing so was
> that Howard assured me that this practice never occurred in his auctions,
> and I believe that was 100% true.
>
> This is why I was so drawn to switching over my entire business to eBay in
> 2000. The greatest benefit to auctioning through them was that *WE* could
> not in any way see the high bidder's secret high bids, and what was even
> better, it seems certain that, unlike every other auction house, eBay
> protected those bids from *ANYONE* accessing them (other than people in
> their tech department, and I never, ever heard of anyone breeching that
> security in any way).
>
> When I left eBay, I found Auction Anything, a wonderful auction host, that
> offered everything I wanted in running my own auctions. But once I had the
> auctions set up, I discovered to my dismay that there was a "secret" view I
> could go to that would show me bidders' "secret" high bids. I immediately
> called the owners of Auction Anything, and asked them to get rid of this
> view, and not surprisingly, their people told me that *NONE* of their
> other auction clients had ever asked them to do this, and that they did not
> have that capability!
>
> I asked them what it would take to remove this from my auctions only
> (because they said they were sure many other clients did *NOT* want to
> remove it!), and they said that not only would it cost a lot, but that also
> it would take a lot of their time, and that they had more urgent things to
> do at that time in adding features that would benefit all their clients, so
> they could not then spare that time.
>
> So I made certain that I never accessed that "secret" view, and I told my
> employees to never access it either. But a couple of months ago, I started
> thinking about how I had 23 employees, and that I could not really guarantee
> their actions, and so I again called Auction Anything, and told them that
> this was a "deal breaker" and that they would have to find the time to get
> this changed. They agreed to do so for a considerable fee, and a couple of
> weeks later they told me that the "secret" view had been removed, and I
> checked and it appeared to be.
>
> But over the next few days, I found a "back door" to access that same
> information that they had not closed, and once I found that I then searched
> their entire site, and discovered two more "back door", and I called them
> and they apologized and closed those, and now I can say with a certainty
> that neither I, nor anyone at eMoviePoster.com <http://emovieposter.com/>,
> can access any high bids placed by any of our bidders in any way.
>
> Not only can we no longer view the hidden high bids, but we can also no
> longer "look up" bidders' passwords, so *ALL* we see is what any user
> of our system sees (except we don't see what they themselves bid on). This
> does mean that when a user forgets their password they will have to go on
> the site and click on the link there to have it e-mailed to them (rather
> than calling or e-mailing us), but this is a small price to pay for knowing
> that your bidding information is 100% protected.
>
> We know of no other auction house (other than eBay and now us) where those
> who run the auctions do not even have the ability to access their bidders'
> proxy bids. We urge all other auctions to implement the same software, and
> we urge all bidders to inquire of auction houses they are considering
> bidding with *to find out if their employees are blocked from viewing high
> bids and passwords as ours are*.
>
> I first announced the above in my e-mail club message #472, sent December
> 13th. A few days later, one of my longtime buyers called me and told me the
> following story:
>
> "I have been a buyer in major poster auctions for over 20 years. I
> have bought some in your online auctions, but not that much, because I am
> not that comfortable with computers. I have been learning how to do so, and
> have been bidding with you, and I recently noticed that one of your
> competitiors has online auctions as well, and I looked at them.
> I found 11 items to bid on, and I gave my secretary 11 bids to place
> on those items for me. A couple were between the estimates, but most were
> over the estimates, and I had bid odd amounts (like $235, etc).
> A few days later I got notification that I had won all 11 items, and I
> told my secretary to pay for them, and she asked me why *EVERY* item was *
> EXACTLY* the price I bid! I looked at the list, and just as she had said,
> I was the high bidder on every item at *EXACTLY* my limit.
> Now I could see that happening on a few of the items, or even five or
> six, *BUT ALL ELEVEN?* I mean, that is astronomical that it could be
> caused by chance. It would be like picking the winners of 11 straight horse
> races! It makes me very sad and angry, but it is easy to figure out what
> happened."
>
> I told him that many other people had told me very similar stories over the
> years, and that the best way to deal with this is to either not bid in such
> auctions, or, if they have items you would like to have at some price, then
> go ahead and bid, but assume that they will "make" you pay your maximum, so
> only a bid a price you will be happy to pay.
> Of course, it is very sad that they have to have this charade of an
> auction, and that there are surely many, many, people who don't "catch on"
> for years, if ever, but until the government ever steps in and regulates
> this completely unregulated industry, it is likely to not change one bit.
> Incidentally, I have heard auction owners defend their actions by
> saying that no one is really hurt by this, because after all, the buyers are
> getting to buy items for the price they themselves set as the price they
> were willing to pay, but I don't buy this for one second, because there is
> gross misrepresentation in "how the game is played" (even if the auctions
> put in the fine print that they can bid on their own items, that consignors
> can bid on their own items, that reserves can be over the estimates, etc).
>
> A couple of weeks later, that same longtime buyer called me back and said
> that once he got over being so mad, he took my advice and simply bid prices
> he was willing to pay. He said he had just placed three bids, and he bid
> three *VERY* odd numbers (like $171.50), and in all three cases, he "won"
> the items for *EXACTLY* his limit! But at least now he knows "how the game
> is played", so he is not as mad, although he said he will likely bid less
> and less high in the future in those auctions (but he mentioned how he had
> bid $400 in an eMoviePoster.com <http://emovieposter.com/> auction
> recently and won the item for $160!).
>
> Does anyone know of any place that auction movie paper where the
> auctioneers *CAN'T* see the hidden high bids, other than
> eMoviePoster.com<http://emovieposter.com/>and eBay? And what do
> *YOU* think of this? Have you had experiences where you felt an auction
> house took advantage of their knowlege of your "hidden" high bid?
>
> Bruce
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