One more evil eBay practice I forgot to write about above is their second chance offers, which should be called the "you were outbid by a shill" offers. It results in the unknowing buyer being shill bid to their max (if they fall for it), and there was no real second bidder.
In the 1% of eMoviePoster.com items where the high bidder never pays, we * NEVER* offer it to the underbidder, but *ALWAYS* re-auction it, starting again at $1. Right now, we have in our Tuesday auctions a great one sheet from *ATTACK OF THE CRAB MONSTERS. T*his is the exact same example of this poster that we auctioned on December 3rd. The high bidder on that poster told us that he * WOULD* have paid for the poster out of his auction proceeds from another auction house, but that they did not pay him as promised, and therefore he had to cancel this purchase. That is why it is again offered, and those who missed out on this the first time have a rare "second chance" to try for it once again. This is the correct and honest way to deal with a non-paying bidder, not "second chance offers". And does it cost the consignor money? Well, there is no way of knowing how much the item would have sold for the first time (had the bad bidder not bid at all), but one would assume it would have been lower, maybe much lower. In the case of this poster, we auctioned it for $1,800 the first time, and now, it is at $1,551, with three days to go. Bruce On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 9:14 AM, Holiday Russell <[email protected]> wrote: > I didn't know about being able to change the username, Bruce. That's VERY > useful. > > Yes, there's a risk of being the high bidder if playing the spite game. > It's more instinct than anything to know where a competitor's high bid is. > I could name a few that characteristically are like pit bulls once they put > a bid in, and they won't be outbid at most any price. Again, though, that's > part of the competition and the fun. The ability to change the username > really solves all these problems. Thanks! > > Holiday > > Begin forwarded message: > > *From: *Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]> > *Date: *January 9, 2010 10:08:55 AM EST > *To: *[email protected] > *Subject: **Re: [MOPO] Fwd: [MOPO] Auction houses that can see absentee > bids, and the huge conflict of interest* > *Reply-To: *Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]> > > Holiday > > I *DO* agree that some bidders will "run other bidders up" purely out of > spite (or because their friend is the consignor of the item). > > That is where eBay dropped the ball completely, and we already two > important safeguards that correct their mistakes, and it sounds like you > don't know about them, so read on: > > 1) On eBay, you can place bids designed to run someone up, and if you "go > too far" and "accidentally" outbid them, you can simply retract your last > bid only, and then the other person is the high bid at their limit, and eBay > does nothing to punish people who abuse this! > > But in our auctions, we don't give anyone the ability to retract their > bids. Once you bid, you are stuck with it. So that takes away a lot of the > incentive of "running someone up" (unless you are connected with the auction > and know exactly what they are bidding, and then can't lose, as I first > described happens all the time in auctions other than eBay or > eMoviePoster.com <http://emovieposter.com/>). > What happens in those rare cases where someone bids say, $220 instead > of $22? They have to contact us by e-mail or phone, and *WE* retract their > bid. If it is too close to the close of the auction, or if they don't reach > us in time, we cancel the auction and re-list it again, starting at $1. > And we note on their account that they retracted a bid, and if they do > it again we suspend them (the person, not the account, as on eBay). We also > look to see if they bid $220 instead of $22, or did they bid say $325, > instead of the $275 they say they wanted to bid (and of course the high bid > they exposed was $300!). > We want no bidders who "play games" with the bidding, and in fact we > want no bidders at all who can't pay for their items *IN FULL* within two > weeks of the close of the auction. We have been told these are "restrictive > credit terms", but that might help explain why we collect on over 99% of our > items, whereas our competitors list the same items over and over and over, > even though they supposedly "sell" each time! > > 2) Anonymous bidding: For years, this was a giant hole in eBay's set-up, > because you could track everything a bidder bid on, and any user name > changes people made, so you could quickly identify those who tended to bid > skyhigh, which let spiteful bidders (or shill bidders) know they could > likely run up those bidders quite a bit (and as pointed out above, if they > bid too much they could simply retract that last bid, with no penalty). > eBay changed to an anonymous bidder system, *NOT* to fix the above, > but simply to stop buyers and sellers from making private deals outside > eBay. But of course that has created even more problems, making eBay 'shill > bidder heaven", for the sellers can bid anonymously on their own items, and > then simply file a "non-paying bidder" report on themselves if they get > stuck with the item and pay no fees. > > But in our auctions, we let people choose their own ID, and they can change > it as often as they like. Other bidders can't see your previous name, so > someone who is worried about spiteful other bidders running them up can > change their ID as often as they like, even every single auction. > If you have even a hint that others bidders have raised your bids > thinking you will surely bid more, then you should certainly try changing > your ID several times and see if that makes a difference. Of course, if you > only collect say, Jeanette MacDonald, people will likely figure out who you > are, even after a name change, so if you are still worried, even with a new > ID. you should continue to wait for the last 5 minutes to bid. > > I am constantly searching for ways to make our auctions even more fair to > *ALL* bidders, because I believe that this will surely ultimately get us > the most bidders, and the most satisfied repeat bidders, which is what we > are after. We never want to make more money off of any item if it requires > do something in the slightest bit dishonerable. Other auctions seem to be > guided by the letter of the law. If they can get away with something, they > do it! > > Bruce > > On Sat, Jan 9, 2010 at 8:11 AM, Holiday Russell <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Thanks Bruce. I've always suspected this and that's why even on eBay I >> either use a sniping program or do the equivalent when manually bidding by >> being there as the time runs out. It's not just fear of what can happen on >> the seller side, but also what can happen from competing bidders that get >> spiteful. The can jack up the price is the get a sense that you have a high >> bid in and that they're not going to win. I've done this myself with >> certain competing bidders I do nor like. That said - here's a suggestion >> for you -anonymous bidding. That fixes the problem of spitefulness - >> almost. Even so I would still be there at auction end and bid manually. >> And, it's more fun that way! >> >> Holiday >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> *From:* Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]> >> *Date:* January 9, 2010 8:23:01 AM EST >> *To:* <[email protected]>[email protected] >> *Subject:* *[MOPO] Auction houses that can see absentee bids, and the >> huge conflict of interest* >> *Reply-To:* Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]> >> >> When I first started preparing auctions for Christie's in 1990, I told >> them I did not want to know what any absentee bidder had bid on *ANY*item, >> and then told me that this information was >> *HIGHLY* confidential, and never given out in any way. Over the years >> I came to find that this was pretty much an "in name only" policy at every >> auction house I would come in contact with (for example, when I became >> friendly with the owners of several other auctions, they would freely >> volunteer to me what items had high absentee bids, and how much, when I >> would show up in person at the preview on the day of the auction). >> >> Obviously, this is a huge conflict of interest! If the auction owner tells >> me in passing that someone placed a $9,000 absentee bid on a $1,000 item the >> morning of the auction, I can later go to that auction and, with an absolute >> certainty, bid up to $8,500, *KNOWING* I will be outbid. Of course, that >> may well mean the absentee bidder pays $9,000 instead of maybe $5,000 (or >> $3,000, or $1,000), but the auction house makes a lot of extra commissions, >> and they get the prestige of selling an item for a sky-high price, and it is >> a "perfect" crime, for there is no way for them to get caught, and there is >> no paper trail whatsoever (they can say a "floor bidder" was the >> underbidder, and they don't even have to have a record of who that bidder >> was). >> >> I detested this, and never took any part in it in any way (either as an >> auctioneer or as a consignor), but saw it happen with regularity in auction >> after auction, and it made me sick. When I switched my major auctions from >> Christie's to Howard Lowery, one of the biggest draws for me in doing so was >> that Howard assured me that this practice never occurred in his auctions, >> and I believe that was 100% true. >> >> This is why I was so drawn to switching over my entire business to eBay in >> 2000. The greatest benefit to auctioning through them was that *WE* could >> not in any way see the high bidder's secret high bids, and what was even >> better, it seems certain that, unlike every other auction house, eBay >> protected those bids from *ANYONE* accessing them (other than people in >> their tech department, and I never, ever heard of anyone breeching that >> security in any way). >> >> When I left eBay, I found Auction Anything, a wonderful auction host, that >> offered everything I wanted in running my own auctions. But once I had the >> auctions set up, I discovered to my dismay that there was a "secret" view I >> could go to that would show me bidders' "secret" high bids. I immediately >> called the owners of Auction Anything, and asked them to get rid of this >> view, and not surprisingly, their people told me that *NONE* of their >> other auction clients had ever asked them to do this, and that they did not >> have that capability! >> >> I asked them what it would take to remove this from my auctions only >> (because they said they were sure many other clients did *NOT* want to >> remove it!), and they said that not only would it cost a lot, but that also >> it would take a lot of their time, and that they had more urgent things to >> do at that time in adding features that would benefit all their clients, so >> they could not then spare that time. >> >> So I made certain that I never accessed that "secret" view, and I told my >> employees to never access it either. But a couple of months ago, I started >> thinking about how I had 23 employees, and that I could not really guarantee >> their actions, and so I again called Auction Anything, and told them that >> this was a "deal breaker" and that they would have to find the time to get >> this changed. They agreed to do so for a considerable fee, and a couple of >> weeks later they told me that the "secret" view had been removed, and I >> checked and it appeared to be. >> >> But over the next few days, I found a "back door" to access that same >> information that they had not closed, and once I found that I then searched >> their entire site, and discovered two more "back door", and I called them >> and they apologized and closed those, and now I can say with a certainty >> that neither I, nor anyone at eMoviePoster.com <http://emovieposter.com/>, >> can access any high bids placed by any of our bidders in any way. >> >> Not only can we no longer view the hidden high bids, but we can also no >> longer "look up" bidders' passwords, so *ALL* we see is what any user >> of our system sees (except we don't see what they themselves bid on). This >> does mean that when a user forgets their password they will have to go on >> the site and click on the link there to have it e-mailed to them (rather >> than calling or e-mailing us), but this is a small price to pay for knowing >> that your bidding information is 100% protected. >> >> We know of no other auction house (other than eBay and now us) where those >> who run the auctions do not even have the ability to access their bidders' >> proxy bids. We urge all other auctions to implement the same software, and >> we urge all bidders to inquire of auction houses they are considering >> bidding with *to find out if their employees are blocked from viewing >> high bids and passwords as ours are*. >> >> I first announced the above in my e-mail club message #472, sent December >> 13th. A few days later, one of my longtime buyers called me and told me the >> following story: >> >> "I have been a buyer in major poster auctions for over 20 years. I >> have bought some in your online auctions, but not that much, because I am >> not that comfortable with computers. I have been learning how to do so, and >> have been bidding with you, and I recently noticed that one of your >> competitiors has online auctions as well, and I looked at them. >> I found 11 items to bid on, and I gave my secretary 11 bids to place >> on those items for me. A couple were between the estimates, but most were >> over the estimates, and I had bid odd amounts (like $235, etc). >> A few days later I got notification that I had won all 11 items, and >> I told my secretary to pay for them, and she asked me why *EVERY* item >> was *EXACTLY* the price I bid! I looked at the list, and just as she had >> said, I was the high bidder on every item at *EXACTLY* my limit. >> Now I could see that happening on a few of the items, or even five or >> six, *BUT ALL ELEVEN?* I mean, that is astronomical that it could be >> caused by chance. It would be like picking the winners of 11 straight horse >> races! It makes me very sad and angry, but it is easy to figure out what >> happened." >> >> I told him that many other people had told me very similar stories over >> the years, and that the best way to deal with this is to either not bid in >> such auctions, or, if they have items you would like to have at some price, >> then go ahead and bid, but assume that they will "make" you pay your >> maximum, so only a bid a price you will be happy to pay. >> Of course, it is very sad that they have to have this charade of an >> auction, and that there are surely many, many, people who don't "catch on" >> for years, if ever, but until the government ever steps in and regulates >> this completely unregulated industry, it is likely to not change one bit. >> Incidentally, I have heard auction owners defend their actions by >> saying that no one is really hurt by this, because after all, the buyers are >> getting to buy items for the price they themselves set as the price they >> were willing to pay, but I don't buy this for one second, because there is >> gross misrepresentation in "how the game is played" (even if the auctions >> put in the fine print that they can bid on their own items, that consignors >> can bid on their own items, that reserves can be over the estimates, etc). >> >> A couple of weeks later, that same longtime buyer called me back and said >> that once he got over being so mad, he took my advice and simply bid prices >> he was willing to pay. He said he had just placed three bids, and he bid >> three *VERY* odd numbers (like $171.50), and in all three cases, he "won" >> the items for *EXACTLY* his limit! But at least now he knows "how the >> game is played", so he is not as mad, although he said he will likely bid >> less and less high in the future in those auctions (but he mentioned how he >> had bid $400 in an eMoviePoster.com <http://emovieposter.com/> auction >> recently and won the item for $160!). >> >> Does anyone know of any place that auction movie paper where the >> auctioneers *CAN'T* see the hidden high bids, other than >> eMoviePoster.com<http://emovieposter.com/>and eBay? And what do >> *YOU* think of this? Have you had experiences where you felt an auction >> house took advantage of their knowlege of your "hidden" high bid? >> >> Bruce >> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at <http://www.filmfan.com/> >> www.filmfan.com >> ___________________________________________________________________ How >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: >> <[email protected]>[email protected] In the >> BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is >> solely responsible for its content. >> >> Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com >> ___________________________________________________________________ How >> to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: >> [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF >> MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. >> >> > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ How to > UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: > [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF > MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ How to > UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: > [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF > MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
