Scott,
Well thought-out points sensibly stated. It should be obvious from my
position over the last few days that I disagree with loosening up the
rules ("they're more like guidelines, really" -- Pirates of the
Carribean) to allow more off topic posts. Look, even with the draconian
rule against it in place, people still posted OT stuff all along and
lately it has got out of hand -- and virtually none of it did anything
to advance your laudable goal that it would make "getting to know a
fellow cyber-collector much easier when you can share a little off-topic
info now and then and makes a discussion board become more like a group
of friends who happen to share a common interest."
In fact, most of the OT stuff has been getting in the way of that goal.
But consider: since we've been getting so much OT with the rule in place
-- how much *more* will we get without the rule?
Then there's the feuding deterrent to consider: While it can happen, it
is far less likely people will slip into fussin' and feudin' with each
other in a thread that is on topic. It is most often the off-topic
thread that slips into a fight.
I know and sympathize with where you're at -- I've been running e-mail
lists on Yahoogroups since 1998 and you're absolutely right that this
hassle comes to all groups. And when the moderator tries to do something
about it, all kinds of unpleasant things often happen. For trying to
enforce simple civility and common courtesy on one of my lists I was
called all kinds of things -- "tin-horn dictator" and "pitiful
self-important prick" were among the more complimentary. So I understand
your desire to strike the right kind of balance. But in truth, you have
been doing exactly that all along, which is why MOPO has had such a
record-breaking run on the internet.
That's why I don't think you should change your OT policy: With the
strong no-OT rule in place, you (and other members) always had that to
fall back on as a way of quickly damping down the OT abuse when it
became too much. Remove the no-OT notice and in the future when you (or
anyone) tries to dampen the frenzy down, they will immediately be
accused of "censorship" and far worse.
My conclusion: If the MOPO FAQ ain't broke, don't fix it.
As anecdotal evidence, I offer this: I'm sure you're very much aware
that the number of people subscribed to MOPO has dropped 25% from the
high of over 500 members a short while ago. What has changed to cause so
many people to sign off? As Rich, Bruce and Grey demonstrate every week,
there are more movie poster collectors than ever. The only thing
different about the last year or two has been the ever-increasing number
of OT posts with "no redeeming social value".
P.S. As I'm sure you know, going to the "digest" version is not a viable
solution to OT posts flooding one's inbox -- not if someone wants to
remain an active member of a list. A digest filled with mostly OT is
long, boring, irritating and essentially impossible to read -- digging
out anything worthwhile out of it is more trouble than simply scanning
through the OT and hitting delete. And then, if you do find something
worth commenting on in the digest, there's no easy way to do it without
accidentally including the entire digest in your reply.
-- JR
Scott Burns wrote:
Well I guess I need to update the MoPo FAQ....my words are coming back
to haunt me.
Some time ago I decided to allow MoPo to breathe a little by
permitting off-topic posts. I thought it would make the group a little
more human. I think it makes getting to know a fellow cyber-collector
much easier when you can share a little off-topic info now and then
and makes a discussion board become more like a group of friends who
happen to share a common interest.
No matter what direction MoPo takes there's always someone ready to
criticize. Like politics, it's a no-win situation. Stay strictly
on-topic and the list is accused of being boring. Go off-topic and
people complain about their inboxes filling up. (Easy solution? Use
the DIGEST version and get all the posts in a single e-mail).
The text from the FAQ that JR has so helpfully posted sounds harsh
because it was posted at a time when the list was in turmoil and in
danger of being destroyed. I don't want to relive the details, but
there had to be a set way of dealing with the bizarre shenanigans and
putting "rules" into the FAQ gave me something to use if I needed to.
MoPo survived, but the threatening tone of that section of the FAQ
remains.
I guess the on/off topic debate will forever plague MoPo. But as list
owner I have the final say and this week the wind is blowing more
towards allowing reasonable off-topic discussions--but please put OT
in the subject line. You may ask what "reasonable" is....well that's
up to me. Sorry, perk of being listowner.
More thoughts:
One really troubling thing I read this week was posted by fellow
discussion group operator Andy. He wrote, (in reply to Holiday):
"RE: censorship - I get more emails _for_ censorship and having a
clean forum than againt it. Some members will only view and post MPF
for that reason alone.But your entitled to your opinion obviously, In
my eyes it's a point of view from a minority of people on the grand
scheme of things."
THAT'S SCARY. One thing I will NEVER be is FOR censorship. Makes my
skin crawl.
Another troubling thing was written by Bruce H:
"...I am so happy there is a "new breed" of poster collector that you
mostly find on allposterforum.com <http://allposterforum.com/> and not
very much here. Many of these collectors have hundreds or thousands of
posters from the past 30 years. They *LOVE *their collections, and
they are buying their OWN memories, not what other people tell them
should be worth collecting."
People on MoPo don't LOVE their collections? Bruce I think you're
taking a cheap shot here and being unfair to /most/ people on MoPo.
There are (and always have been) some rather
vocal/caustic/outspoken/pompous/rude/selfish/greedy/sneaky/backstabbing
people in this hobby. Thankfully they aren't the majority. But like a
hungry mosquito, even one can make your life miserable. Whether its on
an internet discussion group on in the real world it doesn't matter.
Give All Poster Forum time. I've yet to see ANY internet discussion
group avoid drama. It comes to all. Sorry Holiday, your time will
sadly come.
Just ask Andy, Ari, Jon Warren, and Donnie of the old Style-B....and
everyone else who has ever run an on-line forum.
Just a few cents from your usually-quiet listowner.
Scott
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* MoPo List *On Behalf Of *James Richard
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 23, 2010 5:25 PM
*Subject:* Re: [MOPO] everybody back on topic, please!
Andy,
Yeah, it's nice to be easy going about the on-topic rule -- the
problem is it doesn't stop with the "occasional" off-topic
message. First, the message will often stand a thread of off-topic
replies. Worse, somebody on sees an off-topic thread thread going
on and so decides, since they have nothing to write on-topic at
the moment, to toss out another "interesting" off-topic tidbit...
thats starts another thread, etc. At some point somebody makes a
crack about somebody else in one of the 3 or 4 or 10 off-topic
threads going on and a feud breaks out...
...the next thing you know, I've got 50 emails a day coming into
my inbox from MOPO which have nothing to do with posters, films,
collecting or auctioning them.
Already your art-from-grain-of-sand post has spawned 3 off-topic
replies in the first 38 minutes.
I am reminding everybody that it is rule of this list and that
everybody needs get back on topic and stay that way -- at least
for while since the off-topic stuff has got so far out of hand of
late. Too many people are considering leaving MOPO because of all
the static, myself among them.
Look, there are literally a *billion* other places on the internet
to discuss Dinosaur Dung and all these other supposedly
fascinating things floating around on the internet -- but MOPO
ain't supposed to be one of them. The list owner, Scott Burns, has
been very clear about this over the years. Once again, from the
end of section 1.2 of his MopoFAQ on www.Filmfan.com:
"There are 2 VERY important rules concerning posts made to the
MoPo List:
1) Personal attacks of any kind will *not *be tolerated. This
includes name-calling, innuendo, insults or gossip.
2) Off-topic posts are *not* permitted. There are ample places on
the Internet to discuss politics, religion, sex or any other
issue. Posts to MoPo should be related to movies, movie
memorabilia, and the people who collect it.
Persons who disregard these rules will be *removed from list
membership immediately and without notice. *However on the first
infraction, individuals will be permitted to resubscribe if they
wish to rejoin the group and agree to abide by the posting rules.
Upon a second infraction, *removal from the list membership will
be permanent. *Determination of a rule violation and subsequent
removal from the mailing list is the sole responsibility of the
MoPo List Owner."
-- JR
Andy Neal wrote:
Agreed! JR does raise some very good points which I will
certainly take onboard.
I do think we should have some off topic conversations though if
it doesn't involve bickering, for example...
Check out this Watch made from Dinosaur Dung
<http://www.movieposterforum.com/index.php?/topic/31809-watch-made-from-dinosaur-dung/>
Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com
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