Hello all~ I just now had a chance to check my MoPo emails and see the conversation has turned lively over the slabbing of lobbies. As I recall, several months ago when we were in the middle of the fake Universal Horror lobby card situation, many of the people on this forum where wondering why there weren’t any qualified experts to validate the authenticity of lobbies. The issue of slabbing lobbies was brought up at that time and it seems that many of you (not all of course but quite a few) were very much in favor of slabbing (or third party grading and authenticating). So now it’s here! I consider myself in the older generation of collectors (yes, another old fogie as I’ve been collecting and dealing since 1970) and I’m very much in FAVOR of it. First, I thought John Reid’s questions are the most poignant. I would love to hear from a representative of CGC regarding these issues. I will take it upon myself to forward the questions to a representative at CGC and see if we can get a response. As for the rest of the comments, I thought for the most part they were born of deep-rooted concerns within our hobby- and rather insightful as to collectors and dealers concerns. Here’s my take on several of them… “…lobbies…will be purchased by the same investors who have overrun other hobbies.”- Bruce Hershenson Sorry, but I’ve never understood this argument. Are you saying that because someone has money (or has access to more disposable income than you) that they couldn’t possibly love the film as much as you do? Therefore, if they buy a lobby and are willing to pay more than you, then they are investors and not collectors? I truly don’t understand the logic here at all. To me, that’s completely irrational. Here’s another take on the same argument (that’s also just as irrational)- MAYBE they are more of a fan than you and are willing to prove it by shelling out more money to buy the item than you’re willing to pay. Therefore you couldn’t possibly love the lobby/film more than the “investor”. – Hmmm… that doesn’t make much sense either. Maybe there’s another reason people are willing to pay more for slabbed items… "I only buy slabbed lobbies, because I KNOW what I am getting", as if buying an item that some paid employee looked at for a minute is more trustworthy than buying an item from a dealer who has collected and bought and sold lobbies for 20 or 30 years!”- Bruce Hershenson I certainly hope this isn’t a lack of faith in long-standing dealers. However… just because someone’s been dealing for 20 to 30 years (myself included here) doesn’t make them “in-line” with the current grading standards… that don’t actually exist. Heritage, Bruce Hershenson and many other dealers have very reputable grading standards, but they can and are very different from each other. Here’s the basic truth- There is NO standardized grading system in our hobby. Comics, baseball cards and every other hobby has had to go through this growing pain and ours is long overdue. With CGC, a professional grading service getting into the act, I HOPE that we can finally get a standardized grading system. Also- just because a dealer hasn’t been in the hobby for twenty years doesn’t mean that they can’t grade either. I’m sure many of them are far better at it than guys that have been around for more than thirty years. In regards to Bruce’s question #2- “Every top dealer (except for one) has admitted they would have been fooled by the Haggard fakes, and in fact most were, and a leading restorer was fooled by a recreation of an ultra-expensive one-sheet. Isn't that proof that the last thing we need is some new people being paid to authenticate and grade lobby cards?” My own answer to your question is very obviously “This is EXACTLY what we need.” But please bear in mind than when the fakes first came on the market, no one was expecting them- so they weren’t looking very close at the lobbies to see if they were real. This had never happened before. Once people were aware of the situation, and started looking closer, it was much easier to separate the fakes from the real cards. I can only hope that the people at CGC have enough experience in spotting fake paper collectibles (like baseball cards, comic pages, etc) that they can spot fake lobby cards. They’ve been trained to look for problems so they will hopefully spot problems. Lobbies are paper goods- not really so different from other paper collectibles. “I too hate slabbing, especially on comic books where it makes them unreadable.” – Bruce Hershenson. I somewhat agree with Bruce on this one. I actually like the presentation that CGC makes with the slabbed comics. But I don’t like the fact that I can’t read the comic once it’s inside the slab. But with lobby cards, there actually is no correlation to this argument since a lobby card is two sided. There’s nothing “hidden” or pages inside that can’t be seen. This situation with slabbed lobbies is more akin to slabbed baseball cards. And yes, I agree with Grey as well… if you don’t like the slab, then cut it open and remove the card. No problem. “3) In other hobbies (comic books, baseball cards, and coins), slabbing has siphoned millions of dollars out of collector's hands, and has driven out lots of the collectors who have a love of the items, and brought in a lot of "investor" types, and has created a "bubble" in prices not unlike that seen in the stock market or real estate markets. Is that what we want for our hobby?”Cory really answered this one very well. I feel that anything that helps bring new collectors into the market is a good thing and good for the hobby. It will give them a true sense of security in knowing what they’re told they’re buying- is really what they’re buying. I totally disagree with the “investor” comments though. This argument has been around for years… ever since the price of rare Universal horror material went higher than the range that most collectors could afford. And every guy “at the top” of the Universal Horror chain I know of is a COLLECTOR, not an investor. They all truly love the material. And if they do want to invest… so what? Let them invest… it’s their money. “…what about when you have a restored lobby card on of say three known copies or some such? Because it is restored is it no less of an item?”-Adrian Of course not! Just because it’s graded by CGC doesn’t mean anything other than the fact it’s a genuine lobby and that the grade it’s assigned is (hopefully) in line with a soon-to-be-accepted standardized grading system. “shouldn't those slabbing the Lobby Cards be a lobby card expert not a comic expert?”- Adrian I can understand the concern here, however, in what area of expertise are we questioning? Is the card authentic? It is graded correctly? Was any restoration detected and noted? It’s still vintage paper and once the grading is standardized and accepted, what’s the difference what collectible we’re talking about. As long as the information is available to CGC about reissues, etc., I’m sure they will get it right and certainly as well as any other dealer. This is a learning curve that any collector or dealer goes through when entering a new hobby. CGC has the expertise available to them. And, just for a matter of point- I’ve already made some opening bids for some of the lobbies in Heritage’s next Signature Sale. I want to see some of these cards! Let the fun begin! Ron Moore Cinema Icons
--- On Thu, 7/1/10, Cory Glaberson <[email protected]> wrote: From: Cory Glaberson <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage To: [email protected] Date: Thursday, July 1, 2010, 7:50 AM The point of slabbing is exactly as Bruce writes - its designed to assure people new to the hobby that the cards are real and graded properly. These new collectors don't know Bruce or Rich, don't know how to grade lobby cards and don't know who to trust. But they still are interested in collecting and investing. CGC has been around long enough in enough different hobbies to maintain credibility. These new collectors might be speculators and might drive up prices to amazing levels - but I am having a hard time thinking that's a bad thing. So slabbing will bring in more customers, some of who might actually become real collectors, drive up prices on the better material and make the dealers more money and the worth of collections higher. What's the objection? If it works out like it did in comics - it actually DROPPED the prices of lesser material. Only the very top pieces maintained the huge "overguide" prices. It does mean that the people who now are at the top of the hobby will have to adjust to the new reality and that means winners and losers. It will complicate bragging rights as well. A Collector will have a killer card, but these newbies won't be impressed until its slabbed and graded professionally. But its a good thing to shake up move memorabila collecting once in a while (in a good not the Haggard way). Adrian on the other hand does have a point - can these comic book guys be trusted to grade lobby cards? Some of my friends say absolutely not. The CGC guys will get it spectacularly wrong in the beginning, but after a while they conqueror the learning curve. Then slabbing will take off even with established collectors when they see their best stuff triple or quadruple in value. Cory -----Original Message----- From: Bruce Hershenson <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Thu, Jul 1, 2010 6:15 am Subject: Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage I too hate slabbing, especially on comic books where it makes them unreadable. Why not start slabbing particularly fine examples of food, so it will become un-eatable? But here is how it will likely go: An unnamed auction house or two will start auctioning more and more of these monstrosities. They will auction for two to ten times the regular prices (we will never see the high bidders, so we won't know if the results are real, or if it is a house bidder "buying" from themselves). But people will want in on this "free money". and they will start submitting their own lobbies to be slabbed, and for a while they will get great results, and that will encourage them to slab lots more, and others will start doing the same. Then an unnamed dealer will have an "all-slabbed" auction on eBay, and the results will be amazing, and everyone will start to sing the praises of slabbing (except for a few old fogies like me, Phil Edwards, Rich Halegua, and others) and we will quit selling lobbies altogether, and they will be purchased by the same investors who have overrun other hobbies, and before too much longer a lot of the new "collectors" will say, "I only buy slabbed lobbies, because I KNOW what I am getting", as if buying an item that some paid employee looked at for a minute is more trustworthy than buying an item from a dealer who has collected and bought and sold lobbies for 20 or 30 years! At least that's how it played out in comic books, baseball cards, and coins. Some questions: 1) WHO owns the grading service who slabs these (and if a major auction owns even a small percentage of them, then isn't that a massive conflict of interest)? 2) Every top dealer (except for one) has admitted they would have been fooled by the Haggard fakes, and in fact most were, and a leading restorer was fooled by a recreation of an ultra-expensive one-sheet. Isn't that proof that the last thing we need is some new people being paid to authenticate and grade lobby cards? 3) In other hobbies (comic books, baseball cards, and coins), slabbing has siphoned millions of dollars out of collector's hands, and has driven out lots of the collectors who have a love of the items, and brought in a lot of "investor" types, and has created a "bubble" in prices not unlike that seen in the stock market or real estate markets. Is that what we want for our hobby? Bruce On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Phil Edwards <[email protected]> wrote: I would never bid on a slabbed anything. The reasons are painfully obvious, aren't they? Phil E. ----- Original Message ----- From: JOHN REID Vintage Movie Memorabilia To: [email protected] Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 1:03 PM Subject: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage I have been browsing through the latest Heritage catalogue and once again it is very impressive. One thing that will be of interest to many is that amount of "slabbed" lobby cards that appear in this auction. A great many look to be sealed in some sort of plastic with a grading by CGC whoever they may be. I have never been too keen on the idea of slabbed lobby cards and wonder what you guys think about them. My concerns are: Slabbing and grading the cards would add to the overall cost of the cards and surely it would be hardly worthwhile on lobby cards of medium value - say $200.00 What materials are used when slabbing the cards? Is the plastic and materials used to slab the card acid free, uv protected, etc? It looks as though the plastic may be flexible ie it could be bent or creased. Does slabbing protect the card from any damage? How does slabbing affect framing? What happens if sunlight affects the card? If damage occurrs whilst the card is slabbed can the card be regraded? How will this "trend" affect lobby cards that have not been slabbed? Will the value of lobby cards be increased or decreased by slabbing? I know that some collectors will prefer to have the card in its original state and will avoid purchasing cards that have been slabbed. No doubt, there will be others who will like the idea. Regards John Website: www.moviemem.com JOHN REID VINTAGE MOVIE MEMORABILIA PO Box 92 Palm Beach Qld 4221 Australia Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
