We are told that there is a huge need for this gigantic added expense (if every collectible lobby card were to be slabbed then millions of dollars would be siphoned out of the hobby) *BECAUSE OF THE HUGE PROBLEM WITH INACCURATE GRADING.*
Well I auction 2,000 items per week, and I (and my 31,400 movie paper collector customers) don't have* ANY* problem with grading (or concealed restoration), simply because we honestly describe everything we sell, and if any item proves to be even slightly over-graded, then we give a full refund plus shipping both ways, But we almost never get items returned for condition (around one in 2,000 to 4,000). So is the solution to this "problem" spending millions on slabbing everything, or is it in simply honestly grading everything? Bruce On Fri, Jul 2, 2010 at 1:13 AM, Phil Edwards <[email protected]> wrote: > I can answer one question, Freeman. > All the added costs will be worn by the buyer and the seller (if the piece > doesn't sell, in the latter case). > > As another dinosaur said to me offlist... I'm glad I'm the age I am and > have been doing this for 35 years or so, than > being 30 and trying to get inot this business now. > > The whole thing smells of vested interests, at every step of the way. > > And who owns CGC? And how much does it cost to have a card graded and > slabbed, and how long does it take once you send it off to Never-Never Land? > And why should I trust these people? > > Having this hot on the heels of the fake Universal cards scandal is a > peculiar coincidence, but as I'm Down Under most things look upside down to > me to start with. > > Phil E. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Freeman Fisher <[email protected]> > *To:* [email protected] > *Sent:* Friday, July 02, 2010 3:57 PM > *Subject:* Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards GREY I'M TRULY THROWN BY THIS > > GREY, > I have followed all the conversations but no one has addressed my > overriding issues. IF I AM BUYING FROM HERITAGE, I WANT YOUR APPRAISAL OF > THE MATERIALS OFFERED. I and hundreds other collectors, dealers, hell the > whole industry know you and your 99 and 9/10% accurate and all together very > tough grading criteria. And as you know, the satisfaction world wide is > sky-high. > > That said, if I am buying from Bruce Hershenson, I want Bruce's demanding > grading criteria and the knowledge his eyes are reviewing offered material. > ETC. ETC ETC. from Kirby, Todd, Cory, Rick, Dominique, (oh shit the list > is too long) suffice to say the scores of other people I have had the > privilege of acquiring pieces from. > > I do not want to depend on the criteria of an anonymous cabal in Colorado > whose sole interest is trying to widen their revenue by invading this hobby > with so-called impartial & expert grading without a scintilla of proof of > expertise, or without any knowledge of the criteria by which the grades are > assessed. > > For example, what are the points off for an expert and sheer > rice-paper-backed lobby card addressing possibly the most minimum waving > and single corner chip? Okay now how about two corner chips? Okay one > creased corner one corner chip and one ding? Yeesh! > > Secondly, the rationale that this MIGHT encourage newbies to the hobby and > the installation of confidence somehow justifies added expenses which thus > must be either eaten by the seller or passed onto the buyer not only in the > submission in grading, but the expense of shipping to and from the "embalmers > de plastic", and of course once entombed the substantial increase in > shippings For example, Grey, take your full set of lobby cards for OCEANS > 11 The purchase just went from lobbies sandwiched carefully in between > layers of double ply cardboard and your usual small box cushioning the > sandwiched cards, to a substantially larger box with each piece > individually wrapped in bubble so as not to crack or scratch the "lobby > coffins" . > > What is this about a 30% increase in additional costs overall? Already > many dealers are finding that linen backing of one sheets and larger are > rarely costs fully realized back through sales as opposed to years passed. > Now a move to more expenses to instill confidence in a new collector? > Hasn't the industry already snapped to attention post Haggard with > painfully articulated condition reports and imaging in lobby card sales more > than ever before? I know I have and oh maybe 30 other dealers I know. > > GREY, you are a leading industry player whether your are fully comfortable > with that mantle or not. I seriously think you should hold fast to your > dedication, personal expertise and reputation built these last 10 years and > by extension the overall excellent reputation of your company that YOU > ALONE. Why surrender to anonymous eyes no one knows, or care to throw money > too, who have been proven to be inconsistent in the comic book universe on > numerous occasions and whose interest is NOT in establishing confidence in > the hobby but simply to raise their revenue as they brace for diminishing > inventory available in comics? > > The only reason I can fathom in this ill advised move is that Heritage > Corporate has some vested interest in the grading service whether directly > or indirectly. Well fine, leave it to coins, medallions and comic books. > But you should defend your territory with tenacity and by default other > dealers as well. Why sell out now? You are on top of your game and you > don't need nor should you defer to a faceless grading service when you are > already one of the best there is. > > AND THAT GOES TO ALL THE OTHER GREAT DEALERS AND COLLECTORS ON THIS SITE. > > > Bruce my suggestion for your next t-shirt. Screen an empty lobby coffin > with the words FUCK THIS SHIT inside.....of course give it a 9.9 rating to > boot.................. whatever the hell that means. > > . okay i feel better now, > freeman fisher > > > > > On Jul 1, 2010, at 8:30 PM, Bruce Hershenson wrote: > > Dave > > It is no coincidence that the few who love the slabbing idea are those who > SELL expensive lobby cards. They WANT them reduced to "simple commodities". > > Find any collectors who are not also dealers like this. > > Bruce > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 9:58 PM, Dave Rosen <[email protected]> wrote: > Richard, I think you've hit the nail on the head: Slabbing reduces lobby > cards to simple commodities and nothing else. > > The majority of collectors (new or old) collect movie paper because they > love film, vintage graphics, certain genres and/or stars. It's a very > personal passion. > > Slabbed lobbies will appeal to people who just love money and are buying as > an "investment." It's cold-blooded and it takes the heart out of the > hobby... > > Dave > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Richard Evans > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:30 PM > Subject: Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage > > We've had someone with plenty of experience of handling movie paper, but > with eyes that couldn't see, as well as other issues. > Now we have people with eyes that presumably see, albeit in a > completely different area of collecting and with presumably very > little experience of handling movie paper. > Hardly ideal. > Comic book experts authenticating movie paper, and the last thing > you'd want is anything encapsulated to prevent it being properly examined. > > I think the argument that you could always remove from the slab to display > disingenuous. > The whole purpose of it is to guarantee the state the card is in, > and ensure that it remains in that state so it's a reliable commodity. > > Can see an argument for this with high end cards bought for investment, but > only if the authentication is of the absolute highest standard. > (But, perhaps those are too uncommon to create the desired market?) > It seems the ideal system to attract people who have the cash but > don't care enough to educate themselves, or involve themselves with the > hobby. > Movie paper as a cold investment, tucked away for purely > financial appreciation doesn't seem like a good way forward to me. > > > On 2 Jul 2010, at 00:47, Phil Edwards wrote: > > Thanks for writing just about what I was thinking, Bruce. > > I see no one has answered the question you asked about who owns, or has an > interest in CGC. > > And no one has yet answered John Reid's question about the cost of slabbing > a single lobby card. Is it a flat fee or a percentage of the > "value" of the grading, or the perceived value of the card? If the latter, > how is the value arrived at? > > What guarantee does one have that any of the CGC graders do not have a > vested interest, even if removed, from how a card is graded? Can we see a > list of names of the CGC graders who graded the cards for the Heritage > auction? How have they been fully informed of the Universal fakes? > Phil E. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Bruce Hershenson > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 9:15 PM > Subject: Re: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage > > I too hate slabbing, especially on comic books where it makes them > unreadable. Why not start slabbing particularly fine examples of food, so it > will become un-eatable? > > But here is how it will likely go: > > An unnamed auction house or two will start auctioning more and more of > these monstrosities. They will auction for two to ten times the regular > prices (we will never see the high bidders, so we won't know if the results > are real, or if it is a house bidder "buying" from themselves). > > But people will want in on this "free money". and they will start > submitting their own lobbies to be slabbed, and for a while they will get > great results, and that will encourage them to slab lots more, and others > will start doing the same. > > Then an unnamed dealer will have an "all-slabbed" auction on eBay, and the > results will be amazing, and everyone will start to sing the praises of > slabbing (except for a few old fogies like me, Phil Edwards, Rich > Halegua, and others) and we will quit selling lobbies altogether, and they > will be purchased by the same investors who have overrun other hobbies, and > before too much longer a lot of the new "collectors" will say, "I only buy > slabbed lobbies, because I KNOW what I am getting", as if buying an item > that some paid employee looked at for a minute is more trustworthy than > buying an item from a dealer who has collected and bought and sold lobbies > for 20 or 30 years! > > At least that's how it played out in comic books, baseball cards, and > coins. > > Some questions: > > 1) WHO owns the grading service who slabs these (and if a major auction > owns even a small percentage of them, then isn't that a massive conflict of > interest)? > 2) Every top dealer (except for one) has admitted they would have been > fooled by the Haggard fakes, and in fact most were, and a leading restorer > was fooled by a recreation of an ultra-expensive one-sheet. Isn't that > proof that the last thing we need is some new people being paid to > authenticate and grade lobby cards? > 3) In other hobbies (comic books, baseball cards, and coins), slabbing has > siphoned millions of dollars out of collector's hands, and has driven out > lots of the collectors who have a love of the items, and brought in a lot > of "investor" types, and has created a "bubble" in prices not unlike that > seen in the stock market or real estate markets. Is that what we want for > our hobby? > > Bruce > > On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Phil Edwards <[email protected]> wrote: > I would never bid on a slabbed anything. > The reasons are painfully obvious, aren't they? > Phil E. > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: JOHN REID Vintage Movie Memorabilia > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, July 01, 2010 1:03 PM > Subject: [MOPO] Slabbed Lobby Cards at Heritage > > I have been browsing through the latest Heritage catalogue and once again > it is very impressive. One thing that will be of interest to many is that > amount of "slabbed" lobby cards that appear in this auction. A great many > look to be sealed in some sort of plastic with a grading by CGC whoever they > may be. > > I have never been too keen on the idea of slabbed lobby cards and wonder > what you guys think about them. My concerns are: > > • Slabbing and grading the cards would add to the overall cost of the cards > and surely it would be hardly worthwhile on lobby cards of medium value - > say $200.00 > • What materials are used when slabbing the cards? Is the plastic and > materials used to slab the card acid free, uv protected, etc? > • It looks as though the plastic may be flexible ie it could be bent or > creased. Does slabbing protect the card from any damage? > • How does slabbing affect framing? > • What happens if sunlight affects the card? > • If damage occurrs whilst the card is slabbed can the card be regraded? > • How will this "trend" affect lobby cards that have not been slabbed? > • Will the value of lobby cards be increased or decreased by slabbing? I > know that some collectors will prefer to have the card in its original state > and will avoid purchasing cards that have been slabbed. No doubt, there will > be others who will like the idea. > > Regards > John > > > Website: www.moviemem.com > > JOHN REID VINTAGE MOVIE MEMORABILIA > PO Box 92 > Palm Beach > Qld 4221 > Australia > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ > How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List > Send a message addressed to: [email protected] > In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L > The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ How to > UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: > [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF > MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com > ___________________________________________________________________ How to > UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: > [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF > MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content. > > Visit the MoPo Mailing List Web Site at www.filmfan.com ___________________________________________________________________ How to UNSUBSCRIBE from the MoPo Mailing List Send a message addressed to: [email protected] In the BODY of your message type: SIGNOFF MOPO-L The author of this message is solely responsible for its content.
