On Thursday 29 August 2007 5:25;02 PM Ant quotes Pirsig for Ham and Platt [snip]
"The Buddhists would say [the individual] it is certainly central to a concept of reality but it is not central to or even a part of reality itself. Enlightenment involves getting rid of the concept of ‘I’ (small self) and seeing the reality in which the small self is absent (big self)." This analogy is explained further by Pirsig in the following quote: "The Sioux concept of self and higher self is one I hadn’t heard of. At first sight it seems like a striking confirmation of the universality of mystic understanding. In Zen Buddhism ‘Big-Self’ and ‘small-self’ are fundamental teaching concepts. The small-self, the static patterns of ego, is attracted by the ‘perfume’ of the ‘Big-Self’ which it senses is around but cannot find or even identify. (There is a Hindu parable in which a small fish says, ‘Mother, I have searched everywhere, but I cannot find this thing they call water’). Through suppression of the small-self by meditation or fasting or vision quests or other disciplines, the Big-Self can be revealed in a moment sometimes called 180 degrees enlightenment. Then a long discipline is undertaken by which the Big-Self takes over and dissolves the small-self into a 360 degrees enlightenment or full Buddhahood." (Pirsig to McWatt, January 14th 1994) [snip] Hi Ant and all, When I think of evolution I think of process. The solar system exhibits evidence of levels e.g. Sun, Planets and Moons. As much as I am influenced by these entities, I participate in this evolution–an objective self, a small self–following the laws of cosmic evolution. I am incapable of participating in the cosmic act of a moon evolving into a planet evolving into a sun. I would lose my hair. IMO the Big-Self points to a conscious evolution which is proper only to me--a subjective self, a Big Self–which accepts the levels of cosmic evolution and is capable or further levels in enlightenment–individual evolution. The last two levels of the octave of growth depend upon the small self particularly at the level of self-awareness–the "I am empty" social level–but make a 360 degree circle in the last two levels of higher social and higher intellectual levels of enlightenment beyond the intellectual level. Joe Ant McWatt stated to Ham August 30th: In Note 77 of “Lila’s Child”, we see that Pirsig confirms that his view of the self concurs with the one held by Buddhism: “It’s important to remember that both science and Eastern religions regard ‘the individual’ as an empty concept. It is literally a figure of speech. If you start assigning a concrete reality to it, you will find yourself in a philosophic quandary.” Finally, in the section of “Lila’s Child” titled “Questions and Answers” (where Dan clarifies a number of issues with Pirsig including the individual), note Pirsig’s answer here: “The Buddhists would say [the individual] it is certainly central to a concept of reality but it is not central to or even a part of reality itself. Enlightenment involves getting rid of the concept of ‘I’ (small self) and seeing the reality in which the small self is absent (big self).” This analogy is explained further by Pirsig in the following quote: “The Sioux concept of self and higher self is one I hadn’t heard of. At first sight it seems like a striking confirmation of the universality of mystic understanding. In Zen Buddhism ‘Big-Self’ and ‘small-self’ are fundamental teaching concepts. The small-self, the static patterns of ego, is attracted by the ‘perfume’ of the ‘Big-Self’ which it senses is around but cannot find or even identify. (There is a Hindu parable in which a small fish says, ‘Mother, I have searched everywhere, but I cannot find this thing they call water’). Through suppression of the small-self by meditation or fasting or vision quests or other disciplines, the Big-Self can be revealed in a moment sometimes called 180 degrees enlightenment. Then a long discipline is undertaken by which the Big-Self takes over and dissolves the small-self into a 360 degrees enlightenment or full Buddhahood.” (Pirsig to McWatt, January 14th 1994) Platt commented August 30th: What Ant tends to ignore in all his quotes from Pirsig and other sources about the concept of the "individual" as a "convenient fiction" is Pirsig's own use of the term repeatedly in Lila and other writings as if the concept was indeed "real," i.e. a high quality value pattern. Ant McWatt replies: Platt, I am well aware of all these examples of the you refer to in LILA and SODV. However, these are all from the world of everyday affairs (or static) viewpoint of the MOQ (which is the realm SOM is usually limited to). My primary point about the “individual” (confirmed by Rahula, Cooper, Scott Peck and Hagen) is that if you want to move on from SOM (and improve the quality of your life by avoiding dukkha), you have to also recognise the world of the Buddhas (or Dynamic) viewpoint of the MOQ that states that the idea of a static, independent self is essentially illusory. Furthermore, without this Dynamic viewpoint, you start entering a metaphysical mess (a.k.a. SOM Fairyland) as illustrated in the quote from LILA that Arlo recently referred to: “‘Man’ has a body (and therefore is not himself a body) and he also has a mind (and therefore is not himself a mind). But if one asks what is this ‘man’ (which is not a body and not a mind) one doesn't come up with anything. There isn't any ‘man’ independent of the patterns. Man is the patterns. This fictitious ‘man’ has many synonyms; ‘mankind,’ ‘people,’ ‘the public,’ and even such pronouns as ‘I,’ ‘he,’ and ‘they.’ Our language is so organized around them and they are so convenient to use it is impossible to get rid of them. There is really no need to. Like ‘substance’ they can be used as long as it is remembered that they're terms for collections of patterns and not some independent primary reality of their own.” (LILA, Chapter 12) Now I wouldn’t want to stay in SOM Fairyland. The fairies there tend to be well meaning but their magic spells always go wrong somewhere along the way. Best wishes, Anthony . _________________________________________________________________ The next generation of Hotmail is here! http://www.newhotmail.co.uk Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
