Hi Gav, In amongst your pious drivelings I find little to object to, but for the use of "we" that feels like it might have been intended to include yours truly, your comment on pragmatism, and what I infer to be a rejection of Darwinism on political grounds?? The former I'll ignore as I know I have no effective means to criticise, but the latter pair are a different kettle of boiling saints.
What is the purpose of trying to establish a link between pragmatism and "truth"? to me the two are mutually exclusive, if not you might as well call it objectivism, the whole point is that by not asking you just get to do what works - right?? If theres value in these Christian ideals it comes from that separation, you do whats "right" and leave truth to faith. As to not digging darwinism on the basis of its unsavouray bedfellows, I'd point out that Stalin trained as a priest, but that it doesnt put me off socialism. Further, the fact that this viscious cycle has been perperuated for 2000 years doesn't justify it on pragmatic grounds, just defeatist ones. We are also yet to fully defeat leporasy but we do keep trying. Best regards J Bastard Esq > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of gav > Sent: 06 September 2007 13:25 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] Australian Aboriginal charlatans put final > nailintoNeo-Darwinian coffin. > > > good and true are different? not pragmatically. > in any case i get your drift jos, you bastard (how's > that?) > > i just don't dig darwinian theory. it has led to > social darwinism; it has led to the reinforcement of > that idea that we are somewhow top of the tree: free > to fuck up all other life forms, incognizant of our > intimate interrelation to all life. > the aboriginals didn't have that.. obviously. and > neither did other indigenous cultures. > > i am not saying that primitivism is the answer. i am > syaing that we can learn from how these cultures saw > themselves and the world. the aboriginals didn't have > a word for the passing of time, or for ownership. they > lived perpetually in the now. i think we need to > recapture that 'power of now', to borrow tolle's > words. all our problems are born of that bloody voice > in the head that disconnects us from the moment. to > create a peaceful world we need to be peaceful. there > is no other way. > > our western culture reveres jesus above all others - > the 'prince of peace'. but we revere him as an idol > when we should revere the ideal he embodied. the > christ is man aware that he is god and therefore > become god. the christ is man aware that all men are > god and all life is god and therefore his reverence > knows now limits. > > god is a powerful word - a powerful vibration. a > postive vibration, like good. god is not a person, it > is the creative principle, the dynamic, the > intelligence that moves all. it *is* the movement, the > energy, the light. > > jesus captured the imagination so strongly that he > continues 2000yrs later to be the focal point of our > religious culture. again duration is the test. jesus > was onto something and we still feel that...but we > haven't fully understood and become that which he was, > and that was what he was on about. he was a man who > evolved into a god - a man no different from each of > us. now that's some evolutionary theory i want to > understand. > > this is the message of jesus. there is nothing vague > about it. there is no calling for the worship of any > idol, only the worship of oneself as an embodiment of > the divine. no abnegation of the world, but a loving > commitment to it. (jesus was married. it was his > wedding at cana - that was why it was his > responsibility to provide the booze, which he did by > changing the water into wine because the liquor store > was shut). > > wow i have really gone off topic here!! but remember > all topics are really one! > > boomshankah > gav > > > > --- "Laycock, Jos (OSPT)" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Oiy! > > Where's my torrent of abuse????!!!! Theres nothing > > worse (when "it" is you) than the feeling of someone > > having chosen to rise above "it". ;.) > > > > I'm quite happy to say that the world is created now > > in real time through a process of "dreaming" and as > > such was "then" as much as it is now. The dream > > however is ongoing and one of the static patterns of > > that dream is Darwinism. This discussion concerns > > the perameters of that static pattern, and its > > static quality as a descriptive tool of an observed > > process. To damage it in this context the > > alternatives ought also be be of high quality. These > > ones seemed leaky to me, but I realise now that my > > mind is a concrete prison. > > > > Where Dreamtime is "good", and Science is "true", > > clearly it is "better" to be "good" than to be > > "true", (by deliberate tautology) but where > > comparing two "truths", and using the evidence of > > "truth" to do so in your assault on the original > > "truth", I think it is "bad" to resort to arguments > > of "good". > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Behalf Of gav > > > Sent: 06 September 2007 12:16 > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: Re: [MD] Australian Aboriginal charlatans > > put final nail > > > intoNeo-Darwinian coffin. > > > > > > > > > jos, > > > > > > jos:> Gav, > > > > > > > > On the subject of DNA then how would you explain > > the > > > > similarities between primate and human DNA if > > they > > > > are not related? I'm not sure I understand how > > one > > > > can choose to cite evidence from mitochondrial > > DNA > > > > but ignore the evidence of full chromosomal > > > > analysis? > > > > > > I guess all life has pretty similar DNA - cells is > > > cells by and large. > > > > > > > > > > > There seem to remain any number of Darwinian > > > > compatible explanations for the data described > > > > below, the first that springs to mind being that > > it > > > > isn't just humans that can migrate. Migrations > > can > > > > span many thousands of generations, and with the > > > > shifting geography, ice ages etc a population of > > > > advanced primates could simply have lived in > > places > > > > that not no longer exist and became extinct > > leaving > > > > fossil records in the seabed. Pure conjecture of > > > > course, but seemingly slightly more likely than > > > > dreaming. > > > > > > mass monkey exodus? "exodus... movement of jah > > > monkeys.." > > > yeah maybe. > > > > > > i reckon 'dreaming' is more likely. thing is i > > reckon > > > there is a certain measure of truth or value that > > we > > > are all familiar with: duration. > > > > > > the best art endures; the other stuff doesn't. > > > likewise the best theories endure; the others > > don't. > > > likewise the best mythologies endure; the others > > > don't. > > > > > > the dreamtime has endured for tens, probably > > hundreds > > > of thousands of years.....just luck? i reckon its > > > value. > > > > > > this is why astrology and numerology are still > > here > > > despite the ridicule of the science: they are > > valuable > > > - they work. > > > > > > > > > > Further, I should point out mutation > > accumulations > > > > only demonstrate the age of a distinct species, > > > > which really means the time since the last mass > > > > extinction. > > > > > > the age of the species 'homo sapiens' was what i > > was > > > talking about. i disagree about the extinction > > bit- > > > mDNA would be traceable all the way back to the > > > species' origin. > > > > > > >The evolutionary path of simple > > > > proto-mammals into marsupials presumably > > occurred > > > > very long ago and was very different from the > > way > > > > that proto mammals evolved in other locations. > > We > > > > can speculate that outside of Australasia there > > have > > > > been a greater number of mid-scale mass > > extinction > > > > events. To say that marsupial mammals are older > > that > > > > non marsupial mammals ignores a potential common > > > > ancestor and the potential multiple generations > > of > > > > now extinct species. > > > > > > yeah true - tis very speculative. > > > > > > > > > > > You then relate biological timescales to > > geological > > > > ones, now even if I suspend disbelief over the > > > > assertion that one rock may be particularly > > older > > > > than another one, the orders of magnitude that > > > > separate the two timescales make any comparison > > > > statistically irrelevant. > > > >Its like saying that > > > > there's a real significant difference between 5 > > out > > > > of 100 billion years and 6 out of a hundred and > > one > > > > billion years. > > > > > > > > All the science bits dropped in are just like > > > > padding to lend a sense of ad hominem legitimacy > > to > > > > the assertions they're falsely clinging onto. No > > > > doubt all will leap now to crucify the evil > > dogmatic > > > > scientist, but even as a sieve this was > > bollocks. > > > > > > keep your mind open jos. just cos its speculation > > > doesn't mean it's bollox; just mean it ain't > > proved to > > > your satisfaction. > > > > > > mitochondrial DNA evidence suggesting that > > australia's > > > (or melanesia's back then) aboriginal people are > > far > > > more ancient than other races is significant i > > > believe. don't you? > > > > > > its also a question of metaphysical orientation - > > > which is why pirsig is handy. pirsig helps people > > get > > > their head around the *projected nature of > > reality*. > > > it is a much shorter step from here to the concept > > > 'dreaming' than from a objective materialistic > > > viewpoint. > > > > > > cheers > > > gav > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Behalf Of gav > > > > > Sent: 05 September 2007 23:49 > > > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > > Subject: [MD] Australian Aborigines put final > > nail > > > > into Neo-Darwinian > > > > > coffin. > > > === message truncated === > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ______________________ > Sick of deleting your inbox? 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