[SA previously]
> "Exactly! I've tried this before. This is what I
> mean by 'woods'. The woods are an experience that
> includes me, my wife, the deer, my son, cities,
> woodpeckers - it is the ecosystem approach. Some
> took this as raw biological, but I notice wits, I
> notice intellect working in the woods. When I walk
in
> the woods, I don't leave my intellect at the house.
I
> bring it with me. How does intellect relate to
> the woods? This is an original question of life.
How
> does any component relate to anything? I'm glad
> this is being brought back up."
[Jorge]
> SA: about the ecosystems approach you mention
> above: I am also of the opinion that such an
> approach may be used to get a better understanding
> of experiences. Starting from Bateson's Steps to an
> Ecology of Mind, the approach has proved to be very
> fruitful in tackling a number of mental processes. I
> wouldn't worry too much about the approach being too
> "raw biological".
> True, Ecology is a branch of Biology and its
> main concern is 'raw' biological systems, but this
> doesn't mean, IMO, that we cannot take the peculiar
> way of thinking of ecologists out of Biology and
> apply it to other, seemingly unrelated, subjects.
[SA currently]
Thank you for acknowledging an approach I've
tried for over a year now here in this forum. It's
either I'm not explaining myself very well, or I'm
coming from a way of thinking that is on the horizon
for some most of the time. Ron discusses
relationships quite a bit here, and I believe he would
find this interesting too.
[Jorge]
> If 'ecological thinking' has acquired a sort dubious
> reputation among scientist it's mainly because it
> has been used too lightly by people with scarce
> knowledge of the discipline. I'd venture to say that
> this has been mostly due to some people's forgetting
> that it's just an approach, a tool if you want and
> confusing models with what something might really
> be. As someone wittily remarked the problem with
> loose 'ecological thinking' is akin to the chap that
> drives-in a nail with a hammer and comes to think
> that the hammer is the cause of the nail getting
> into the wood. As long as we don't forget that the
> hammer is just a convenient tool, as is the
> ecosystems approach as applied to Mind, it may
> prove helpful in our understanding
> of varied processes.
[SA currently]
Yes. Static patterns are analogies and metaphors.
This fits in with this 'quietness' I talk about. The
woods are truly quiet even amidst a roaring creek. I
find this kin to what is referred to as white noise.
[Jorge]
> Some years ago I became (tangentially)
> involved with something called Ecosystems Analysis
> (the application of Systems Analysis to eco-systems.
> Not that I learned much of it by I acquired a
> tremendous respect for that discipline and its
> practitioners. Those fellows would take a slab of
> Nature that included hundreds of components and
> variables and would proceed to formulate models that
> could be as close to 'the real thing' as was
> mathematically feasible. As opposed to what is
> normally done in other disciplines, that is to
> select a few variables and keep the rest constant,
> they try to retain the maximum number of variables
> consistent with a quantitative analysis of the
> system.
> What mental states or process, such as a
> music experience we are examining here, may have in
> common with the above is that their description (
> description: a step to understanding) entails a vast
> number of components that interact among themselves
> through an even large number of variables and
> corresponding functions. The approach of selecting
> one or two and assuming for the rest "all other
> things being equal", has resulted so far in an
> extremely poor understanding of what might be going
> on in our mind.
Yes. I agree. Restriction descriptions to one
or two and assuming all else is a constant, a mistake
in thinking all can be described as this or that and
then in thinking all else (including this and that) is
a constant such as minimizing everything to quality in
this context. Thus, I would also state, using another
example, is minimizing all to the Dao, and stating
there is a yin and yang and then leaving it at this:
Dao with components of yin and yang. There are the
ten thousand things, too. Can the ten thousand things
be all described? I doubt it, but to ignore trivals
is to then leave the door open to the Amazon Rain
Forest (to use a common point of reference) is trival,
so, what value does this forest have? To question
its' value by surmounted economics as more universal,
and worthwhile. This happens a lot these days upon
the earth. Yes, the tiger is endangered, but for
people to have to explain to other people the value of
a tiger that is not extinct is trying to explain to
people something of the ten thousand things and their
scope is only on a human-made generalization where
economics is universal and tigers are trival and don't
fit within such a universal perspective. Try
explaining to somebody why Marley's Golden Mole is
important and to even have to explain significance
already sets value in a difficult position. I mean
why is Joe Smoes thought important compared to the
U.S. president. The press goes to the president
constantly. Power is positioned culturally into the
very few. Intellect power can be positioned into a
culture one or two. The ten thousand things are
over-looked and the blind double edge sword swings as
the needle in the haystack can't be found.
By the way, here's a list of endangered species
as I was looking for a small creature to mention here
as follows (what I found 'funny' is a warning is given
at the top of the page about how this page is very
long and some computers wouldn't be able to bring this
page up unless the page could be divided into two or
three pages so browers wouldn't have difficulty):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_endangered_animal_species
[Jorge]
> I hope you won't mind if I comment on the other
> part of your post in a following one.
Go ahead. Thanks.
woods,
gray,
slate-colored juncos,
lunch,
SA
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