To Bo, Magnus and Steve:
My reaction after reading your comments on my Post
was a loud 'Phew!!! ' This because I realized that,
what started as a somewhat idle question about fuzzy
boundaries between the four levels, it's going to
entail considerable strain of my brain cells while
trying to answer properly the various points that you
raise there.
If you don't mind I'll deal here with some general
aspects and tomorrow, in my next digest, I'll get down
to specifics. ( I'm a slow writer and my ideas are
somehow less stupid after debating them with my
pillow).
Starting with some observation of Steve: " Note
that these Platypi you are talking about aren't of the
philosophical variety of mind/body, free will, etc.
but rather of the more mundane "what kind of thing is
this" sort."
I think that terminology is terribly important so
this needs to be cleared out at the start. . I have
been using "thing" in the sense of: " An entity, an
idea, or a quality perceived, known, or thought to
have its own existence." which seems to cover
practically every-thing, So, "what kind of thing is
this" related in my post also to things of the
philosophical variety and including, of course,
patterns of thought.
Bo writes:
If I could get hold of the earliest entries to the
Lila Squad
discussion I would be able to document that I spoke of
fuzzy lines between the levels from the start"
Glad to know that you also thought of it. I would be
very interested in reading those entries from Lila
Squad if you can dig them up. No point on repeating
what has already been said.
Bo also writes: " An organism is a biological
pattern, the
fact that it is made up of matter does not mean that
it shares some properties
properties with the inorganic level". If I read you
correctly you are implying that the criteria for
ascribing something to a given level depends on the
type of the controlling pattern. I tend to agree on
that. However, it seems to conflict with Steve's and
Magnus criteria for categorizing. Do I take it that
you haven't arrived at a consensus view on
categorizing among the four levels? Or I am misreading
some or all of you?
Magnus, you write: "I would indeed contend that the
borders between the levels are
quite discrete and not fuzzy at all. " However in
your Essay (in the section Answers) you write: ""The
answer to "are animals organic or social patterns?"
is, both."". That's the sort of proposition that fuzzy
sets (as opposed to conventional ones) would
accept.However,in formal logic A cannot be a member of
two subsets B and C, (if the criteria used for
assigning members to each subset is the same).
Nevertheless, an apple can be 'both' red <and> round,
because the criteria for ascribing to the subsets is
color for one and shape in the other. In short, if
levels are discrete(as opposed to fuzzy) an animal
cannot belong to two different levels unless the
criteria used for assigning is not the same. I was
under the impression that the criteria was the same:
the positioning in an Evolution axis. Again as a
question Am I wrong there?-- If this is not clear
we'll be going round in circles.
The former notwithstanding, I found your Essay
(which I hadn't read before) quite illuminating. We
could very well use it as a platform for the present
discussion. Where does one comment on Essays in this
website?
Bo also writes: "I can't find one example that
throws spanners in this works, but you may have some
that
I haven't thought of." Not that my intention is to
throw spanners around but, if the four levels are
thought of as discrete, not continuous, with
well-defined boundaries, I can visualize dozens of
'embarrassing' examples; on the other hand if the four
levels are thought as fuzzy sets then I can't think of
any.
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