Steve, Bo, Everybody
I thought I'd try to concretize a bit here
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Steve:
Which came first? Subjects and objects or SOM?
Bo proposes that intellect originates with a distinction between symbol
and what is symbolized. I agree that such a distinction is important
and is presupposed in most intellectual patterns, but is this all we
mean by SOM?
SOM is a metaphysics that says that subjects and objects is all that
reality really is. Thinking in terms of subjects and objects must
naturally precede such philosophizing about the nature of reality. In
other words, S/O thinking is not the same as S/O metaphysics (SOM).
Bo:
I agree with Chris, but suspect Arlo's "agreement" ("individuality's
is mostly a thing created by the 4th. level") to be from different
premises than Chris' who, I believe, speaks from the S/O -
definition of the 4th. level and sees the free individual mind - only
hampered by social bigotry - is a 4th. level FALLOUT, not the
level itself. While Arlo sees humankind's ability to think as the
4th. level and the subject/object distinction a later (fallout)
pattern. Note that he calls the individual self a concept, his
intellect is "mind" and consequently everything are concepts -
ideas. ยด
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Here it comes:
This focusing on individuality and the tendency to extend the intellectual
level far more then necessary I think is a residue of SOM thinking. When
people start to think about their thoughts as separate from the world they
are living in, making an effective S/O division that's really when the
Intellectual level starts to grow, you all know me to hold this position.
Furthermore, this special way of perceiving the world/everything then puts
everything within frames of it's own - the SOM, and "thinking" is then
forever associated with this - indeed this is what "thinking" MEANS to all
intents and purposes. Furthermore, when this view takes hold, it is
naturally so that it says that "thinking" has always been around, logical
thinking, illogical thinking - it doesn't matter, it's Thinking all the
same. Since this is a fundamental way of perceiving the world this becomes
the most basic and natural way of things, Thinking is fundamental, and makes
up the world.
When the MOQ comes along and says that there really is no such thing as
thinking, it does so within this frame of referances which has become
fundamental, and impossible to escape - the languages we use is formed by
this notion (even the word notion). So, when Bodvar (and now I) say that the
intellectual level is only the Subject/Object division, this poses a
problem.
"But people has always been thinking!" you say, and "what about animals,
aren't they thinking?" - "the people of ancient Mesopotamia, weren't they
thinking?" Yes, they were, and, yes, they are, if you use "thinking" the way
it has been used now for about 2000 years. But not in a MOQ sense. In our
reality there is no such thing as thinking, there is only Quality, and the
way it's manifested. In affect, the people of Mesopotamia and the people of
present day Sweden are both "Thinking" from a S/O point of view, that is,
they are/were using their brains in complex ways to interpret things around
them - BUT when we look at it from a MOQ perspective, all they where really
doing, and is doing is responding to Quality. The MOQ says that this has
been done in different ways - that's the Levels folks - but it is all
Quality in our book.
For the last 2000 years there has been the notion that thinking has always
been around, and it just differed a bit, then the MOQ comes along and says -
no, not really. But that thing, that notion of thinking always being around
in different ways makes up a world view that is so different from any other
things that has been around and will be around I'll wager, that it
constitutes a Level in the MOQ book.
So, when I see people anxiously wanting to extend the intellectual level
further and further I think it is just residues of the grip that this S/O
world view still has on us all.
If we recognize this It becomes much easier for us to continue our work of
establishing this new view of things (where there is no things)
IMO
Chris
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