P> [Chris] >> What the hell is this? This throwing around mindless quotes might work >> with >> someone who doesn't actually study history and knows nothing about it >> (200 >> years, now where did THAT rabbit come from?). I mean, I see your point, >> but >> you have no real arguments, you just have random quotes that doesn't add >> up. >> >> Have a look at this one for example: >> > Ben Franklin also said: "I think the best way of doing good to the >> > poor, >> > is >> > not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of >> > it."
[Platt] > Mindless? Ben Franklin is mindless? Surely you jest. Oh, quit it. I never said that. [Chris] >> Well, what happened was that the poor, the workers, the farmers etc took >> the >> initiative to create a political movement to create a more humane and >> safer >> society for themselves. This was pretty much achieved as soon as >> everybody >> gained the right to vote (something they didn't do by doing nothing I'll >> tell you). This is the beginning of the Scandinavian model, the success >> of >> which is undisputed. > Hardly "undisputed." Not "undisputed" perhaps (since people like you dispute it :P), but it works, and people are happy with it. [Platt] >According to a study by the Swedish Institute of Trade, > the "median household income in Sweden at the end of the 1990s was > equivalent > to $26,800 compared with a median of $39,400 for U.S. households." The > study > concluded: average income in Sweden is less than the average income for > black > Americans which comprise the lowest income group in the U.S. This could to someone who just glance at it seem like really something. But unfortunately I know the nature of statistic, and this is yet again a great example of nothingness. First of all, "Black Americans are bunched up together as one homogeny group. As pointed out before, there is a great deal of difference between Oprah and a black worker in the ghetto. And Median: Wiki: "In probability theory and statistics, a median is described as the number separating the higher half of a sample, a population, or a probability distribution, from the lower half. The median of a finite list of numbers can be found by arranging all the observations from lowest value to highest value and picking the middle one. If there is an even number of observations, the median is not unique, so one often takes the mean of the two middle values. Example: X,Y,Z median= Y Example: W,X,Y,Z median = mean(X, Y) = (X+Y)/2" So you see it doesn't really say anything about this particular issue. And this is a measure of income, only. This doesn't take into account the expenses. I mean, since we get h whole lot of more stuff paid for us - Public healthcare, schools, education and social welfare - this isn't taken into account. Purely economically speaking the US is a stronger economy, that has more of both super-rich people and super-poor people. So, this statistic doesn't really say anything about the Quality of life within each state. And that is the important thing. [chris] >> So then you have a system where people can get cheap, >> good healthcare, good education, and that, because there is a social >> safety >> net, reduces crime far better then in those countries that haven't. >> What >> happens is that overall one get's a more stable base to build upon. And I >> am >> sorry to disappoint you, but within this model there is no repression of >> the >> mind or body, and yes, there is a free market and all that - it works >> fine >> as long as one realizes that everything isn't black and white. I might >> also >> add that at the moment (since 2006) we have a right-wing government (you >> would probably call them liberals anyway) but not even they want to >> remove >> the system, only modify it. No one wants to remove the system, and the >> worst >> thing anyone can be accused of in a political debate is to what to have >> it >> the way it is in the US (now that the Soviet is gone). [Platt] > See above. Also, what is your tax rate? Higher than yours because we Value things like Public healthcare, schools, education and social welfare. Quite simple. >> I'm just saying, things aren't black and white, either or. The middle way >> is >> almost always the best. [Platt] > When it comes to defending individual liberty, I don't think the middle > way is > almost always the best. Sometimes you have to stand and fight. Don't you > agree? Sometimes, sometimes not. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
