Ham questioned of Pirsig's philosophy: Or, is he saying that Reality, as Quality, has a moral conscience of its own that determines the course of evolution?
Marsha corrected (quite correctly): It is that Quality _is_ morality, not _has_ a moral conscience. Ham then said oddly: No, Marsha. The primary source is not morality, it is potentiality. Marsha hit back: Quality is morality. Matt: I believe the kids would say-- Awwwww, SNAP! Matt p.s. Good one, Marsha. > Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 13:23:32 -0400 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] Correctness and Usefulness > > At 12:46 PM 5/6/2008, you wrote: > >>Dear Marsha -- >> >>[Ham, referring to Pirsig's quote "it's all in your head."] >>>If morals are all in my head, morality is what is good for me. In >>>other words, it's relative to the >>>observing subject. >> >>[Marsha]: >>Maybe it's relative to the connection between the >>patterns which comprise the observing subject and >>the patterns being observed. Everything is connected to everything. >> >>Reminds me of the old ditty, "shin bone's connected to the thigh >>bone's connected to the leg bone's connected to the ..." Sure, >>everything is connected. That's what makes the experiential >>universe a relational system. But Existence is not a system: it's a >>self/other dichotomy. > > Says who??? > > >>And the contingents of this dichotomy are not jusr >>"intellectualized relations", they are antinomies -- contradictory >>essents that are responsible for all "difference" in actualized reality. > > They are empty, empty, empty... > > > >>Consider the empirical difference between the subjective Self and >>objective Otherness. > > And what would that be? > >>Self is the immanent, conscious locus of awareness. > > Self is a ever-changing collection of overlapping, interrelated, > inorganic, biological, social and intellectual, static patterns of value. > >> It has no being, cannot be objectively localized, measured, >> quantified, or observed. > > If you are saying self has no place, time or nature, that sounds > about right. Empty. > > >>Otherness is all the rest. > > Opposite-from-non-self. Empty. > > >>It is external, universal, substantive, quantitative, >>predictable. Awareness and Beingness have no attributes in common >>but are absolutely divided in existence. The only thing that holds >>this dichotomy together is the Value of the primary source. > > Quality is Emptiness. You can divide and label it many way you > like, but it is still Quality (Dynamic/static). > > > >>>It is that Quality _is_ morality, not _has_ a moral conscience. > > > > >>No, Marsha. The primary source is not morality, it is potentiality. > > Quality is morality. > >>Morality is what man chooses for society based on what is >>intellectualized as "good for him". > > That is man-made definition of morality. Quality IS morality, with > or without man. > > >> If ultimate reality were Morality, mankind could not make these >> choices, and there would be no "moral conscience'. We would all be >> programmed to behave as Reality dictates. Instead of free >> creatures, we would be robots incapable of appreciating moral or >> esthetic value in our experienced world. > > Man-made morality is important, I think, but I'm not positive. This > man-made morality has been a dismal failure. > > > >>The Quality that Pirsig extols is what I call the Value of our >>primary Essence. The cognizant individual can realize this quality >>only because she is negated from the source. > > You do have some ideas that interest me, but not the above two > sentence. This sounds very much like baloney. Maybe if you change > source to emptiness, it would make some sense. > > >>As an artist, when you produce an original painting on canvas, how >>do you know it has value? > > I can know if painting a canvas has had value because I experienced > the value of painting it. > > >>We can know it only by experiencing it. > > You would know if there were value in viewing it, by viewing it. > >>If you were the canvas would you be aware of your value? > > I am not a canvas so I don't know. > >>It requires an observer apart from the source of value to appreciate >>its quality. Hence, the split between subjective awareness and >>objective beingness. Existence represents this split or >>dichotomy. But existence cannot be the ultimate reality because >>nothing can create itself. > > I have no yet come to a decision about existence other than it's > Quality/Emptiness. > > > >>This truth is sorely missing in Pirsig's MoQ. > > Says who? > > >> He posits Existence as "moral quality", which it is clearly not, >> and stops short of positing its potential source. The Quality >> hierarchy may serve as a euphemistic paradigm for cultural >> morality, but it cannot be considered a metaphysical ontology in >> the absence of a source to support it. > > You confuse Social morality with Quality. Not much I can do about that. > > > >>Anyway, that's my opinion. I expect to be told that I have >>misrepresented Pirsig's philosophy. And, while that's quite >>possible, no one has yet convinced me that my interpretation is in error. > > Okay. > > > >>Thanks for your enlightenment on the interrelationship of value >>patterns. Unfortunately, your maxim "the moral is relative to the >>difference" is incomprehensible to me. > > I thought it was quite insightful. > > >>Regards, >>Ham >> >> > > > Regards, > Marsha > > > > > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _________________________________________________________________ Make Windows Vista more reliable and secure with Windows Vista Service Pack 1. http://www.windowsvista.com/SP1?WT.mc_id=hotmailvistasp1banner Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
