heya, the more profound and general the truth of a statement, the more paradoxical that statement appears to be. the tao te ching tackles this well.
so when it comes to freedom we can say that we are at our most free when we lose or surrender our (egoic) selves, but what does this mean re: (ham:)".... the individual > as the conscious locus of existential reality or the agent > of value in the > world...." well, to be a conscious locus of reality one must be fully present - ie in an undivided state - at one. the individual in this sense is equatable with nature, earth, universe - reality as a whole. the individual, or rather the free individual, is one who has merged with the present - the tao. the tao is DQ. ie to be a free individual means being indivisible from the tao or DQ. it is only in this fully conscious state that the intelligence of the whole universe becomes available to consciousness. maximal agency = maximal integration. ....or the only way to find your (true) self is to lose your (egoic) self. your true self being the one intelligence/mind/process that animates everything, expressed uniquely, a la snowflake style, in all of us. --- On Sun, 6/7/08, Ham Priday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: Ham Priday <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [MD] moq thought experiement 1. > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Received: Sunday, 6 July, 2008, 4:57 PM > Hi Craig (Marsha quoted) -- > > > [Ham, previously]: > > Pirsig...has put man in a cosmic "vat" by > denying him > > the autonomy of free choice and self-determination. > > [Craig]: > > What source do you have for this view of Pirsig? It > doesn't sound > > true to the MoQ. > > Ask Marsha where she got this definition of human being: > > Sentient beings are not things, not selves even, but > clusters of > > interrelated, ever-changing, inorganic, biological, > social and > > intellectual > > static patterns of value interacting within a field of > Dynamic Quality. > > Even if this is not a direct Pirsig quote, it represents > the MoQist view of > what man is -- not an entity, not a self, not even a > proprietary subject, > but patterns of value in a field of quality. There is no > "free agency" in > such a construct because the "field" itself is > the operand of the patterns. > The static patterns, in other words, are programmed by DQ. > > Here are some of Pirsig's own statements alluding to > mankind: > > "Objects are inorganic and biological values; subjects > are social and > intellectual values." > > "All life is a migration of static patterns of quality > toward Dynamic > Quality." > > "Natural selection is Dynamic Quality at work." > > "Mental patterns do not originate out of inorganic > nature. They originate > out of society, which originates out of biology which > originates out of > inorganic nature. And . what a mind thinks is as dominated > by social > patterns as social patterns are dominated by biological > patterns and > biological patterns are dominated by inorganic patterns. > There is no direct > scientific connection between mind and matter." > > "To the extent that one's behavior is controlled > by static patterns of > quality it is without choice. But to the extent that one > follows Dynamic > Quality, which is undefinable, one's behavior is > free." > > I've been unable to find any references to > individuality, individualism, > individual freedom, self-determination, proprietary > awareness, or personal > autonomy. Instead, in all these quotes citing > "subjects", "mind", "life", > and "free", there is the presumption of a > collective consciousness being > dominated or controlled by DQ. > > Unless you can provide a statement by the author supporting > the individual > as the conscious locus of existential reality or the agent > of value in the > world, I don't see how you can refute my "self in > a vat" characterization of > his philosophy. > > Thanks, Craig, > Ham > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Get the name you always wanted with the new y7mail email address. www.yahoo7.com.au/mail Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
