hiya ham and everyone,
ham:
> Inasmuch as Value is a perceived attribute of Essence, it
> is 'a priori' to
> existence. It is, in fact, the only aspect of Essence that
> we directly
> sense.
>
> But your question is discerning, since it is the self which
> makes value
> aware as being in experience. I view existence as the
> experiential
> construct of value, and it was in that sense that I
> referred to Value as
> primary to existence.
existence is the experiential construct of value.... okay, i'll have a think on
that....
to my thinking existence and experience are simultaneous and immediate. ie at
time T = 0.
after looking at a dictionary the word itself has original connotations that
throw some more light on things. to be existent is to come into being or to
stand out, it seems to suggest form to me - a discernible pattern.
so your formulation does make some sense. that is there may be a conceivable
time lag twist experience and the existence of some pattern.
mind you time is an abstracted pattern too....when you are in the present you
are totally aware, the judging, categorising, naming ego is absent. yet the
world 'exists' or perhaps we can say experience 'exists' (getting a bit
confusing), it is just the words, the homogenising labels that are absent -
ceasing their tyranny over the unique and infinite manifestations of fluxing
consciousness.
so as usual our goal here is really to speak the same language, philosophy
often boils down to exact definitions.
we are after a balance between sq and DQ, form and formlessness - a harmonic or
coherent (mark maxwell) relationship between the two that responds dynamically
to the everchanging phenomenal flux. it is a dance and like any dance it
insists that we remain attuned, present, otherwise we don't feel the music.
when we are attuned, ie in a coherent state with the 'music', we are selfless.
we are one with the tao. this is the goal - to live as a dead man - to kill the
self reveals the true 'self': the identity of the individual and cosmos - the
interiority mirroring the extertiority.
>
> I'm surprised that you didn't challenge me on this
> point. (Perhaps that
> will come later.)
>
> I would also be interested in what you make of this
> exchange with Marsha:
>
> [Ham]:
> > The notion of thoughts existing somewhere without a
> thinker
> > is absurd; yet if you take the MoQ and its
> Intellectual level
> > literally (as I do), it seems to lead to that
> conclusion.
thoughts exist without a thinker in books, on websites etc. originally the
thinker was the conduit for them, but as far as original thoughts go - they
were not the source!!! this is the key. from miller to poincare to many others
the phenomenology of thought, especially creative thought, has been
investigated quite thoroughly. we know that thoughts *come to or through us*
from somewhere else. the thinker doesn't create the thought. the thinker
creates the struction (jaynes) - the constructed instruction - that mind then
works with. the struction is an intellectual construction, it is a well
formulated question. the answer, the new idea, comes spontaneously,
surprisingly and quite often ironically....it is DQ/Tao irrupting into
consciousness.
so a thought *does not* require a thinker....the 'thinker' asks a question
(sometimes this isn't even done consciously)....DQ provides the answer. this
answer is a thought. it originates from no-thing. because we share a collective
consciousness (which is becoming more apparent every day) with the human family
we find that similar thoughts tend to occur to different people in different
places simultaneously.....eventually we reach the stage of a truly
participative collective consciousness, giving us direct access to the
knowledge of all peoples and cultures.
>
> [Marsha]:
> Literally? Meaning what? The MoQ is an analogy.
>
> Exactly how much of a metaphysics of quality should be
> regarded as
> "analogy"?
every intellectual pattern is an analogy, a metaphor. language is metaphor. it
is all a map, not the territory. it is up to us to choose the better analogies
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