OK Chris ... just two "warnings" for now. Yes, "freedom" is one of those devalued / overloaded rhetorical "slogan" words - but let's just respect each others intelligently intended usage for now.
And, you narrowed the concept of "freedom" in the opening to just "freedom of the individual" at the end. You take us back to the individual issue again - rolling both my axes into one. I was using it in the sense of relative intellectual freedom from social effects - on that axis. Let's keep 'em separate until we agree otherwise. As I suspected - we do largely agree. I'm just trying to slow you down to simpler constructive steps, before we jump to bold new conclusions. I think (if Mati takes some initiative) that following Mati's line of question might lead us somewhere - out of the fly-bottle ;-) Ian On 7/16/08, Christoffer Ivarsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > All right Ian, I'll give you my input on this for now: > > > [IG] I think the main "axes" that define the difference are > > social (constraint) vs intellectual (freedom), and > > social (collective) vs intellectual (individual). > > I've said this a million times. But exactly how ? Apart from the > > directions / dimensions of these axes, I've never yet come to any firm > > demarcation lines, so I simply treat these as many possible patterns > > within one "cultural (socio-intellectual) level" (for now). > > > > Yeees. Right. Apart from the fact that I am beginning to hate the word > freedom we don't really differ. In my view the intellectual level which is > the quest for knowledge seeks to be as free from social constraints as > possible, however it has not managed to rise to a supremacy position as of > yet. > > Also in my view the intellectual level operate by transforming social > patterns into fitting the intellectual "quest" and thus the two work in a > intimate intertwined symbiosis - people are born into a society which hands > them a par if glasses with which to direct their thoughts - so they think in > a certain way when they go about following the urge from the intellectual > level to gain knowledge - in accordance with the patterns that the > intellectual and the social levels have laid out for them. > > The freedom of the individual is thus not a intellectual pattern, it is a > social pattern that has been created by the intellectual level to further > it's goals. > > Regards > Christoffer > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
