Ron, Chris, yes we already agreed ... Social and intellectual are not as distinctly independent as the MoQ might at first suggest. Let's not jump to any further conclusion on that distinction yet. (we're all making lots of valid statements about the nature of social / intellectual relationships ... but we don't need to presume any one is "defintive" yet - see the rest of Mati's thread.)
We also agree "freedom" is a key aspect - one of my axes - even if the word is loaded with rhetorical difficulties. Your final phrase is as good as any I've heard - if I may restate slightly ... "Intellectual value arises from social freedom". An important relationship. Ian On 7/16/08, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ian: > Precisely Ron ... telos lies in mthological tradition - the quest for > knowledge is not independent of this, it's not incidental / > accidental. > > Unfortunately threads are being conflated and balooning into talking > about everything at once again - oh well. > > Ron: > Not to beat the linguistic drum again, but what Chris seems to be doing > is attempting to define an abstract universal in order to define the > intellectual level when the intellectual level is unique to its > particular > culture. There are universal intellectual themes that emerge cross > culturally, but to build on this muddies the waters about how intellect > is defined within a society. His stressing the dominance of the > intellectual > level asserts SOM over social values. Which as Platt likes to point out, > fails to meet human needs adequately, but if he stresses the societies > value of it's intellectuals FREEDOM he back treads on his original > stance. > Chris states: "The freedom of the individual is thus not a intellectual > pattern, it is a social pattern that has been created by the > intellectual level to further it's goals." which is kinda paradoxical, > if society doesent value the FREEDOM of it's intellectuals then how may > intellectuals create > their own FREEDOM? > > Intellectual FREEDOM rests squarely with societal value of its > intellectuals. If society does not value it's intellectuals, it's > intellectuals have no FREEDOM to shape society. > ie. Bolshevism > > I do not see how you may have a conversation about intellectual > value without using the word FREEDOM . Social FREEDOM gives birth > to intellectual value. > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
