I like that Gav, I commented on your "devil 2" as part of "our" confusion - the fact that the Giant infects our thinking and discussion .... but you're right, the conflict is not "between" the (static) patterns themselves ... the conflict only arises when individuals make (active) choices.
John Z DeLorean - who should know a thing or two about immorality (!) - once said in his GM corporate days "Committees of moral men make immoral decisions." The moral choices are all made by individuals. This of course illustrates the "individual / collective confusion that we also get in discussing the social / intellectual. By focussing on the defining & understanding the levels and their patterns we take our eye off the DQ ball. Fascinating angle. Ian PS - interchanging right & wrong, good and evil, God and the Devil. "Everybody knows that no means yes." Neil Hannon & The Divine Comedy. On 7/22/08, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > for my own benefit.... > > dionysius is DQ; apollo is sq. the two are complementary. > the MOQ however places moral precedence with dionysius - WITH THE 'DEVIL'. > which i think fits with nietszche. > this is why a lot of christians are confused. they have mephistopheles as > their false idol, whilst they deny and vilify the divine (dionysius) as satan > - how screwy eh? > > but the whole charade is still divine - cos it can't not be. that is to say > that mephistopheles is still part of the divine comedy, an essential part. he > is the impetus for man to strive towards freedom through intellect. if there > were nought to strive against, there would be no need to strive. reminds me > of the faun in pan's labyrinth (archetypal conflation there too): the final > test requires that he is *disobeyed*: disobedience being man's ORIGINAL > virtue (wilde) - the one from which all others issue (since virtue > presupposes agency - autonomy). > > disobedience is the rejection of social control in favour of one's own > guidance (DQ). > > i think that the static levels are confusin a lot of people here. > as marsha and others have said the primary split is DQ/sq. this split is > fundamental. the levels are there to breakdown sq. > > i like this story though - has much mythic potential: god as devil and devil > as god - role swap going on....to discover the truth requires disobedience > and trust in one's own nature (DQ). > > the conflict IS NOT between intellect and society. this is why you guys are > getting confused. it is not between static patterns. it is fundamentally a > case of DQ/sq. any intellectual pattern we all agree on becomes social! - > SCIENCE IS PREDOMINANTLY A SOCIAL PATTERN. the intellect is there to guide > the (individual) will towards DQ. this completes the existentialist ethic, > and sits well with schopenhauer too. > > moral dilemmas are about CHOICE. only the individual can consciously choose > and take responsibility for that choice. which means taking responsibility > for the world as YOUR CHOICE. in other words, choose wisely. > > > > --- On Tue, 22/7/08, gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > From: gav <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Subject: [MD] the devil > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Received: Tuesday, 22 July, 2008, 11:27 PM > > been thinking about the horned one. > > reckon we have a bit of confusion going on - two different > > archeytpes that need to be extricated from one another. > > > > devil 1: > > pan; the green man etc. the nature deity of pagan cultures > > which was vilified when christianity was supplanting these > > cultures. the horns, hooves, goatiness...horniness... and > > the result is man alienated from nature, from his own > > nature. the (repressed) shadow of jungian psychology is > > born. > > > > devil 2: > > mephistopheles > > goethe's devil. this devil is none other than the > > giant. mephistopheles seduces the individual into his > > service: money, fame, women, power, knowledge - these are > > the bait. > > > > devil 1 is a character assassination. a PR job on behalf of > > Rome. nature becomes 'the other', which we fear and > > therefore subdue and exploit. > > > > devil 2 is the one that rules the roost - the real devil. > > he is the social mind - the egregor, the ego (for the ego > > is collective: same program - different bodies). he is very > > cunning. goethe's faust was lured by the promise of > > knowledge. HE WAS A MAN OF SCIENCE. the giant is here on > > this list - a regular contributor. > > > > so let's give it the MOQ treatment: > > devil 1 - nature spirit. > > the instinctual, passionate, *and ecstatic*: the > > recognition, or more accurately - gnosis, of the unity of > > life - the unity of the inner and outer, the symbiosis that > > is gaia. > > this spirit permeates all levels, by definition. nature is > > the Tao. this spirit is DQ. Pan is dionysius. Dionysius is > > the dynamic principle -formlessness, chaos, spontaneity. > > the war on pan is a war on DQ. it is the denial of DQ - > > which is to say a denial of the immanent transcendent - the > > omnipresence of the divine (within and without). > > > > in vilifying pan we have turned our back on the divine > > manifest as the earth - nature as god's form. and we > > instead have unconsciously pledged allegiance to.... > > > > devil 2 - mephistopheles. > > the giant. the unifying principle of the social level. > > ...whose job it is to subdue the individual...to prevent > > his/her recognition of their own divinity (DQ), via the > > intellect. > > > > > > > > Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online > > experience. www.yahoo7.com.au > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Start at the new Yahoo!7 for a better online experience. > www.yahoo7.com.au > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
