Hi Ron, [Ron] You do not respect a religion if it is deemed "false"
[Steve] Disagreement does not mean disrespect. For instance, I disagree with people on this forum on some issues, but I don't disrespect them because of it. Therefore Catholics do not disrespect other religions. Two examples: Pope John Paul II had many sit-down meetings with the Dalai Lama, and Pope Benedict XVI just recently held talks with Muslim scholars in Turkey. [Ron] You do not respect sex, when positions within the church are denied to women. [Steve] This one is harder to argue against, but I will say that women can pursue religious orders (become nuns) or participate in the Church as a lay person. Religious order is only one type of vocation (marriage being another). I will also say that the tradition of only men becoming priests, is a point for debate within the Catholic community today. Peace, Steve On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 10:07 AM, Ron Kulp <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dignity: > > When this concept is associated with the adjective "human", it is used > to signify that all human beings possess intrinsic worthiness and > deserve unconditional respect, regardless of age, sex, health status, > social or ethnic origin, political ideas, religion, or criminal history. > If violated, this can be considered discrimination. In other words, this > respect is owed to every individual by the mere fact that he or she is a > "member of the human family" > > Ron: > The Catholic faith is based firmly in the ideal that there is ONE and > only > ONE way to God. > History has shown that this principle has guided the Catholic faith in > its policy toward other religions not to mention that it discriminates > based on sex. Therefore the statement "Belief in the inherent dignity of > the human person is the foundation of all Catholic social teaching." > seems to be > a contradiction in policy and terms. > > You do not respect a religion if it is deemed "false" > you do not respect sex, when positions within the church > are denied to women. Therefore it is seems "Human dignity" > is rather conditional. > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of gav > Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 2:52 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] Social Level- Catholic Social Teaching > > hiya, > > 1. Dignity of the Human Person > > Belief in the inherent dignity of the human person is the foundation of > all Catholic social teaching. Human life is sacred, and the dignity of > the human person is the starting point for a moral vision for society. > This principle is grounded in the idea that the person is made in the > image of God. The person is the clearest reflection of God among us. > See selected quotations. > > gav: dignity...i am not sure this is the word i would choose...the word > has rather pretentious connotations sometimes...but this is a minor > balk. i would say that 'human life is sacred...' is a problem sentence > though. anthropomorphism, simply. 'life is sacred' full stop. > > 2. Common Good and Community > > The human person is both sacred and social. We realize our dignity and > rights in relationship with others, in community. Human beings grow and > achieve fulfillment in community. Human dignity can only be realized and > protected in the context of relationships with the wider society. > > How we organize our society -- in economics and politics, in law and > policy -- directly affects human dignity and the capacity of individuals > to grow in community. The obligation to "love our neighbor" has an > individual dimension, but it also requires a broader social commitment. > Everyone has a responsibility to contribute to the good of the whole > society, to the common good. See selected quotations. > > gav: do we need to separate the social and sacred? is this > sacred/profane division not emblematic of the general western > psychopathology - ie alienation? > the obligation to 'love they neighbour' is only necessary when the > social is viewed as separate from the sacred. if the social is seen as > sacred then the obligation dissolves into a natural tendency, a fait > accompli. > > 3. Option for the Poor > > The moral test of a society is how it treats its most vulnerable > members. The poor have the most urgent moral claim on the conscience of > the nation. We are called to look at public policy decisions in terms of > how they affect the poor. The "option for the poor," is not an > adversarial slogan that pits one group or class against another. Rather > it states that the deprivation and powerlessness of the poor wounds the > whole community. > > The option for the poor is an essential part of society's effort to > achieve the common good. A healthy community can be achieved only if its > members give special attention to those with special needs, to those who > are poor and on the margins of society. See selected quotations. > > gav:rich and poor = the classic capitalistic dichotomy. recognising the > poor as a category in need presupposes the validity of the dichotomy and > perpetuates it. a radical social shift needs to undermine these false > divisions in order to realise community proper. > > 4. Rights and Responsibilities > > Human dignity can be protected and a healthy community can be achieved > only if human rights are protected and responsibilities are met. Every > person has a fundamental right to life and a right to those things > required for human decency - starting with food, shelter and clothing, > employment, health care, and education. Corresponding to these rights > are duties and responsibilities -- to one another, to our families, and > to the larger society. > See selected quotations. > > gav: my only criticism here is that it presents the situation in an > economic manner. i buy my rights by fulfilling my responsibilities so to > speak. the arbitration of this exchange opens the door for rules and > rulers, potentially. > if my integration within my community and the natural world is > maintained through the mythic imagination then the mythopoetics, the > lore implicit in the stories that give my life meaning, ensure a > harmonious social-individual relationship, without recourse to explicit > law or regulation. > > 5.Role of Government and Subsidiarity > > The state has a positive moral function. It is an instrument to promote > human dignity, protect human rights, and build the common good. All > people have a right and a responsibility to participate in political > institutions so that government can achieve its proper goals. > > The principle of subsidiarity holds that the functions of government > should be performed at the lowest level possible, as long as they can be > performed adequately. When the needs in question cannot adequately be > met at the lower level, then it is not only necessary, but imperative > that higher levels of government intervene. See selected quotations on > the role of government and subsidiarity. > > gav: as lao-tse elegantly demonstrated the best ruler is the one that > can let people run their own affairs. he becomes invisible. > the principle of subsidiarity seems sound and seems to reinforce the > value of self-sustainability: ie the functions of govt devolve to the > individual and community, and where greater co-ordination is required, > it is achieved through a bottom up co-ordination rather than a top-down > administration. > > 6. Economic Justice > > The economy must serve people, not the other way around. All workers > have a right to productive work, to decent and fair wages, and to safe > working conditions. They also have a fundamental right to organize and > join unions. People have a right to economic initiative and private > property, but these rights have limits. No one is allowed to amass > excessive wealth when others lack the basic necessities of life. > > Catholic teaching opposes collectivist and statist economic approaches. > But it also rejects the notion that a free market automatically produces > justice. Distributive justice, for example, cannot be achieved by > relying entirely on free market forces. Competition and free markets are > useful elements of economic systems. However, markets must be kept > within limits, because there are many needs and goods that cannot be > satisfied by the market system. It is the task of the state and of all > society to intervene and ensure that these needs are met. See selected > quotations on markets, workers rights, and labor vs. capital > > gav: the capitalist system is fundamentally flawed and intimately > related to the problems of alienation and environmental destruction. we > cannot use the earth as a bottomless resource and tip, nor can we > promote greed as a social value. the primacy of money, of the economic > paradigm itself, must end if we are to live sustainably. > > 7. Stewardship of God's Creation > > The goods of the earth are gifts from God, and they are intended by God > for the benefit of everyone. There is a "social mortgage" that guides > our use of the world's goods, and we have a responsibility to care for > these goods as stewards and trustees, not as mere consumers and users. > How we treat the environment is a measure of our stewardship, a sign of > our respect for the Creator. See selected quotations > > gav: a view stained with the corruptive lens of the economic paradigm, > once more. the world is not a storehouse of goods for the benefit of > everyone, the earth is a symbiotic superintelligence, of which we are an > integral part. when the earth is inseparable from yourself what need of > any 'social mortgage'? > > 8. Promotion of Peace and Disarmament > > Catholic teaching promotes peace as a positive, action-oriented concept. > In the words of Pope John Paul II, "Peace is not just the absence of > war. It involves mutual respect and confidence between peoples and > nations. It involves collaboration and binding agreements." There is a > close relationship in Catholic teaching between peace and justice. Peace > is the fruit of justice and is dependent upon right order among human > beings. > See selected quotations. > > gav: apart from the inherent hypocrisy of the catholic church talking > about justice and peace (not exactly paragons of virtue on either > count), the phrase 'right order' sounds a little fascist to me...but > maybe i am just paranoid. > > 9. Participation > > All people have a right to participate in the economic, political, and > cultural life of society. It is a fundamental demand of justice and a > requirement for human dignity that all people be assured a minimum level > of participation in the community. It is wrong for a person or a group > to be excluded unfairly or to be unable to participate in society. See > selected quotations. > > gav: spectacular. the situationists railed against the > compartmentalistaion of life (work, leisure etc), being especially > pissed off at the idea of art/culture as some sort of socially > sanctioned spectacular experience rather than life in its totality. > the sits were on about life as a continual flowing series of open-ended > situations of which the individual is an integral part. perpetual > participation (in life) or none at all, there is no middle ground here. > there is only a spectacular (SOM) or integrated (MOQ) view of existence > > 10. Global Solidarity and Development > > We are one human family. Our responsibilities to each other cross > national, racial, economic and ideological differences. We are called to > work globally for justice. Authentic development must be full human > development. It must respect and promote personal, social, economic, and > political rights, including the rights of nations and of peoples It must > avoid the extremists of underdevelopment on the one hand, and > "superdevelopment" on the other. Accumulating material goods, and > technical resources will be unsatisfactory and debasing if there is no > respect for the moral, cultural, and spiritual dimensions of the person. > See selected quotations. > > gav: anthropomorphic again. > an aside: it is the shaman's role to mediate between the human world - > his community/tribe - and the non-human world, to ensure harmonious > relationship twixt the two. we can be fully human only in connexion with > each other AND all other (non-human) forms. we must stop separating the > human from the earth...it is an illogical and damaging myopia. > we are one family - gaia. gaian consciousness (the goddess) is > (re-)inserting herself into the collective psyche to re-equilibrate our > paternally weighted weltanschaaung. > another aside: > just watched 'into the wild' - kinda relevant. the spirit of > being-in-the-world, of freedom, of belonging....and the danger of > extremes... > > > > --- On Mon, 28/7/08, Stephen Hannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> From: Stephen Hannon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: [MD] Social Level- Catholic Social Teaching >> To: "MOQ Discuss" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Received: Monday, 28 July, 2008, 4:21 AM >> Hi all, >> >> I thought it would be interesting to take a look at how one >> group of >> people (Catholics) look at social level values. Is there >> any parallel >> to social values we usually discuss? What are the >> overarching >> intellectual values/ideals driving these social teachings? >> >> http://www.osjspm.org/major_themes.aspx >> >> Peace, >> Stephen >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Find a better answer, faster with the new Yahoo!7 Search. > www.yahoo7.com.au/search > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
