At 03:29 AM 1/9/2009, you wrote:
Marsha, Platt and MD
Jan. 8
Marsha exclaimed something I guess is exasperation over my
raising such an odd topic, but I like to draw conclusions from
premises. You should try it some day.
Bo,
I rise magnanimously above such childish remarks.
Marsha
Platt wrote:
> It has always been of interest to me that people here and elsewhere who
> claim to be atheists invariably invoke the teachings of Jesus when asked
> to describe the basis for their moral guidance. Whether it's extolling
> the goodness of being my brother's keeper or making love not war,
> invariably Christian moral principles are imputed by atheist
> intellectuals. Some radical leftists have even gone so far as to claim a
> Marxist government would be a an expression of Christian ideals.
Yes, the Bible was so long our frame of reference that it became
ingrained. Even if "enlightened" I find it a loss that it no longer is
generally known, there are so many to-the-point phrases there. For
instance "Give unto Caesar what Caesar's is" that I forgot in my
opening post, indicating Jesus' budding intellectual leaning, what
we now know as the secular/religious dichotomy. The lack of what
is Islam's curse.
> All of which raises the question: Is Christian morality also an
> intellectual level morality?
Yes, there are definitely moral aspects that are Christian and
intellect-influence, in general the human worth and rights which so
dominate it, but the term "moral" is still synonymous with the Fall
Myth about good and bad entering existence. What is good and
what is bad is the Ten Commandments on to which countless
additions has been added, particularly in Judaism and Islam (if
Islam has something like the commandments??) at least the Tora
and Koran are choke full of rules and regulations.
Then Christendom. My knowledge is not great, but the Greek
influence began with Constantine making it a "state religion" (that
was the first secularizing) and Aristotle becoming a Church Father.
A major shift took place when the S/O offshoot Soul/Body entered
and drove a wedge between Christendom and it's Semitic roots.
This dichotomy is not known in Judaism and Islam something that
demonstrates their pre- or non-S/O quality. But is was not until the
said Renaissance and enlightenment that it really took off.
But still Christendom is still a peculiar mix, how liberal many
clegypersons are and accepting the scientific explanation of most
aspects of life, also that Jesus was conceived normally by Joseph
and merely a "good person", morals is still a religious matter; good
and bad must have some divine reference, hence the Old
Testamentists. And I guess the latter not grasping the there can be
highly moral cultures - the Chinese f.ex. - without any it having a
divine guarantor.
> That a Christian-suffused group of Founding Fathers in the U.S.
> established the MOQ-cited intellectual level guarantees of freedom of
> speech, freedom of religion, trail by jury, etc. would suggest a "yes"
> answer.
Definitely. For the Founding Fatheres FF) these rights and
freedoms were what they saw as the highest divine message (I
guess there weren't atheists in late sixteenth century). So this is
the point: We see that something greater than religion picks the
parts of holy texts that fits its purpose, the Bible surely has parts
that supports despotism, but this greater something made the FF
focus on the parts that support human worth and rights. And the
MOQ reveals what's at work behind the scene.
Bo
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Albert Einstein: "Although I am a typical loner in daily life, my
consciousness of belonging to the invisible community of those who
strive for truth, beauty and justice has preserved me from feeling isolated."
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