> [Bo] > In Homer's "Iliad" for instance you won't find any references to > awareness, thoughts, ideas, my opinion ...and such, it's all emotions, > about fury and courage and semi-gods with fantastic qualities, but > these aren't said to me supernatural, this hasn't yet come to be.
> [Krimel] > The first line of the Iliad reads as follows: > "Sing, O goddess, the anger of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought > countless ills upon the Achaeans." > Sounds a lot like a story about the emotional state of a particular > individual. [Bo] I don't get your point, I say it was all about emotions and you affirm it. That emotions were expressed by various individuals goes without saying. [Krimel] If Achilles understand his emotions to be his and his alone, doesn't that imply acknowledgement of his own existence as a subject independent of the other Greeks? > [Krimel] > "Agamemnon rose in anger. His heart was black with rage, and his eyes > flashed fire as he scowled on Calchas and said, "Seer of evil, you > never yet prophesied smooth things concerning me, but have ever loved > to foretell that which was evil. You have brought me neither comfort > nor performance; and now you come seeing among Danaans, and saying > that Apollo has plagued us because I would not take a ransom for this > girl, the daughter of Chryses." > Does this sound like the words of someone who does not have a sense of > himself? I really don't even like the Iliad and fortunately did not > have to dig to find this stuff. It's on the first page. [Bo] This was when the social level was "leading edge" (we still have it in our Q constitution) and there were individuals, with plenty sense of self, but with an enormous sense of honor and duty (Aretê) of being part of something greater than self, willing to sacrifice one's life for it, yes, one's self-respect was dependent on it. What the greater common cause is has varied, the social era's last stage were the Semitic type religions*) and we see it expressed these day in the Muslim will to sacrifice ....and their emotional abandon. *) Even if the said monotheism occurred before the Iliad times or simultaneous there were tens upon tens of thousand years when social reality reigned. [Krimel] Bo, you are so befuddled it almost seems quaint. The notion of the Self or the Psyche or the Soul existing as independent of the physical body goes at least back to the ancient Egyptian concept of "ka". Your analysis of history is almost always fatally flawed because you never look to history to see what was going on. You decide what was going on and mash history around until to suits your predetermine model. This might work better if you actually studied the history you speak about even a little bit. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
