Poloukhine said to dmb:...you are comingling the meaning of theism with that of organized religion, fanaticism, authoritarianism and anti-intellectualism. dmb says:I think it's quite obvious that in this world theism exists as the various forms of organized religion and those institutions have exhibited plenty of fanaticsim, authoritarian and anti-intellectual. To pretend that "theism is simply "the belief in a god or gods" is simply disingenuous. Like I said, it's been in the news. It's also an historical fact. Poloukhine also said:Adding to this confusion you also make unfound associative inferences. A priest does not molest a child because he believes in a god; he does so because he has a perversion that afflicts humans regardless of their stance on whether or not a god exists. dmb says:Molestation by priests is far more common than it is among preachers because of the Catholic Church demands celibacy. It's obviously a result of certain beliefs within the institution that lead to repressed and distorted sexuality. Among protestant leaders we've seen that their sexual problems tend to come from their beliefs with respect to homosexuality. In both cases, however, beliefs have consequences, those beliefs are institutional and the consequences are obviously destructive. Poloukhine also said: That the vast majority of priests are not child molesters, or the vast majority of Muslims are not fascist terrorists pretty clearly makes this point. dmb says:Does it have to effect the vast majority for child molestation or terrorism to be taken seriously, to be recognized as a real cause for concern? No, obviously not. I think that it's reasonable to assume that the vast majority suffers from the same problem but it manifests itself to a lesser degree. I mean, all celibate persons have repressed their sexuality and there is a whole range of consequences. Destroying the lives of innocent children is just the most conspicuous and objectionable reaction.
Poloukhine said: The trouble in what you decry is not *theism*, its just plain human depravity and *social* retardation. dmb says:Well, if I had said theism was the only cause of depravity and social retardation you would have a good point. But I didn't so you don't. Poloukhine said: Better IMO to put our intellects to better use; to craft a society where theism has a healthy place, where it can continue to underpin society's evolution with neither hindrance to its own MoQ evolution within that hierarchical role nor with detriment to society's Dynamic evolution. dmb says:I don't entirely disagree with that. I don't think we can decide the future shape of social evolution. It's too big and complex. But each of us can each begin to improve the world by working with our own hands and working out what's in our own hearts. You know, we don't change the world per se. We just BE the change in our own lives and that's especially true with respect to spiritual things. We ought not worship the divine as and external being, we ought to become divine through transformational practices. The historical forms of religion can certainly help in that respect but fundamentally all the Western forms of theism would call that blasphemy and they have been known to kill people for saying such things. Instead of believing that Jesus died for your sins, as the all the churches teach, it is important to realize that you are the one that needs to die for your sins, although this is not a literal death. That distortion is not a shocking or horrible as the stuff that makes headlines but it is also a very, very sad state of affairs. In that sense, theism PREVENTS spiritual fulfillment among the vast majority of its believers. These are just the big ones. Theism is a problem for many, many reasons. It has negative effects on parenting, education and politics too, just to name a few. Maybe that explains my "tone". To my mind, you are acting as an apologist for some truly evil stuff. And that, sir, is very relevant. _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
