At 07:34 AM 3/17/2009, you wrote:
Greetings to you Marsha
15 March:
I had written:
> >The intellectual level will take the shape of S/O aggregate anywhere
> >and everywhere. The alleged non-S/O intellect that the Upanishads
> >philosophy spells in the Oriental Culture was also a search for
> >truths beyond the Veda mythology, but it never developed the way it
> >did in the West to become a static level, before they moved on to
> >some Quality-like stage. Why there is some likeness, and why Pirsig
> >spotted it, but he should have dropped it, now the Zen is a drag.
> What does 'now the Zen is a drag.' mean? How is Zen a drag?
> Of course your opinion is good for you, but I find the Wisdom, both
> logic and the compassion, within Buddhism very meaningful. It has
> enhanced my understanding of the MOQ.
Zen is a drag due to the infamous pre-concept/conceptual
"metaphysics" the latter-day Pirsig has superimposed on the
MOQ. This was not part of his original insight which was pre-
intellect/intellect (intellect=S/O). About something ahead of
subjects and objects being pre-conceptual was William James'
idea and something DMB had peddled ever since he began his
acadmical career.
Greetings Bo,
I sometimes think just a slight shift and everything would fall into
place, perfect understanding, but then I am a dreamer.
Marsha listen: If concepts (language-conveyed ideas) are
regarded as secondary to a real world out there we subscribe to
SOM's "objective over subjective" party. The MOQ is a total break
with SOM and has relegated it the role of its own intellectual level
and consequently the "pre-concept/concept" has become a static
intellectual pattern. Language and/or language-conveyed ideas
don't play any particular role except as a social tool that intellect
inherited.
I am sooo unqualified to speak about Buddhism. I have no teacher
correcting my interpretations and I fear that I may make a mess of
it. But it seems to me Buddhism has long, long ago identified the
flaws in the subject/object point-of-view.
For me, the Ultimate/conventional, pre-conceptual/conceptual,
Dynamic-Quality/static-quality are not one over the other, but they
are mutually interdependent. You can't have one without the
other. DQ and sq are mutually interdependent. I don't think DQ is
out there and sq the in-here subjective, but that the sq experience
is overlaid onto the DQ experience which gives rise to the conception
that there is self and objects. DQ is sq, and sq is DQ.
RMP has said that the Social and Intellectual levels can be
interpreted at mind (conceptual symbols). Most symbols are of the
social-level variety, like language. Some like the Pythagorean
theorem, music and freedom are the intellectual-level variety
because they have no correspondence in the world, but are a strictly
abstract concepts.
As far as the MOQ, there is a sq-moq and a DQ-MOQ. Everybody is
correct. The sq-moq is all written by RMP on the subject and all we
on the MD endlessly discuss, and then there is the DQ-MOQ
experience. The sq-moq version is the intellectual-level version,
the DQ-MOQ is the insight which looks down onto all the levels from
the mountain top. (Ooops. It's hard not to want to be poetic. I'm
erasing as much as I'm writing.) The DQ-MOQ is the moon, the sq-moq
is the pointing to the moon. - Buddhism has social-level patterns
and intellectual-level patterns, but Prajnaparamita (Perfect Wisdom)
is the insight which looks down onto all conventional reality (all
levels and all patterns) from the mountain top.
Well that's my East-West solution. Any questions?
Masrsha
The Buddhist compassion is great, but when it tries to make it
across to the S/O-steeped Western World it has to apply it's (the
West's) "intellectual" S/O matrix and creates metaphors like the
moon-finger.
Bo
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_____________
Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
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