Greetings, Marsha -
I hope you enjoyed your weekend at the beach. (I don't know where you
vacation, but I hear that the weather was great at the Jersey shore.)
Krimel "stepped in" for you in the meantime, informing me that you have been
"far too charitable" to me, considering my Hamish language and "blue pill
thinking" (whatever that means). He seems to find my posts "a rich source
of humor".
When we left off, you were contesting my observation that the Pirsigians are
"not content to accept existence for what it is -- a self/other duality."
You evidently thought I meant accepting certain precepts about physical
reality (e.g., a flat world) as scientifically true.
Let me change the language a bit. Was the world flat when
human beings experienced it (accepted existence for what it is)
as flat?
It is true that human beings experienced the earth as a flat plane (within
their field of vision), They also experienced the sun rising and setting at
the earth's horizon, as if circling the earth. But experience can be
deceptive, and their conclusions were proved to be wrong by the evidence
available to Science.
On the other hand, the relation of my awareness to the objects of my
experience is self-evident to me. There are no empirical measurements or
data whereby Science can disprove this self/other duality.
No Ham, I experience the conventional world conceptually
as my thinking self, not separate from it.
No, Marsha. You experience the objective world as an other to you. Because
you have been persuaded that your reality is the world, that they are not
separate, you've allowed your intellect to contradict your experience. The
question you have to ask yourself is: Which of these constructs is "true"
and which is the illusion?
Descartes concluded: "I think, therefore I exist." Marsha concludes: The
world exists, therefore I do not".
[Ham, previously]:
Static patterns of value responding to Dynamic Quality" is
incomprehensible language to me.
[Marsha]:
For me, it is the best statement of Conventional Reality I
have ever heard. Goodness!
The best statement of reality you've ever heard? According to the author,
Quality = Value. If that's true, the meaning of this quotation is
essentially: Quality responds to Quality.
Language is analogy. Surprising isn't it, how much we can
use this shared language and NOT agree with each other. - EGO is not a
little pattern; the ego is the mistaken belief
that a controlling self that can own or disown its patterns. - If I am
experiencing the world fully what would be the need
of becoming? Becoming what? Tarzan? The King of the
World? If I am experiencing the world fully there is no interval for
becoming, no ego.
Ego is not a "belief"; it's the psychologist's term for self-esteem or the
need to be esteemed by others. I don't know where you're going with your
remarks about "experiencing the world fully" and "the need of becoming".
Does anyone experience the world fully? By "world" do you mean "reality".
As someone recently told me, "I have trouble following your unique
metaphysical language."
The remainder of your post is taken up lauding Pirsig for his "tremendous"
achievement in bringing East and West together. This may be your
"experience", but it certainly isn't mine. And since the only justification
you can come up with for denying the self is your "static patterns" mantra,
it's obvious that you want to deny what is self-evident. Why should I wish
to destroy your euphoria?
I will say you've provided disturbing evidence that once indoctrinated to
the MoQ, there appears to be no turning back.
Enjoy your stay in Qualityland,
Ham
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