Matt, Whoops, what I thought was wrongly quoted was more like confusingly quoted. It was me trying to clarify a statement Ron had made, but if it led you somewhere, great.
None of the below (haha), Marsha On Jan 4, 2010, at 4:22 AM, MarshaV wrote: > > Matt, > > I suppose my use of the world "haunted" was too dramatic. > > Margolis' book is very interesting to someone who thinks conventional reality > is relativistic. > > Below I have noted where you wrongly attributed a quote to me. > > Onward with my reading... > > Marsha > > > > > On Jan 3, 2010, at 6:07 PM, Matt Kundert wrote: > >> >> Marsha, Ron, Andre, >> >> Marsha said: >> I have been haunted by something I read a while ago: All >> knowledge is to some degree false because it is to some >> degree incomplete. ... Margolis says much about adding >> Indeterminate to the bipolar truth-values.... I wonder that >> DQ is present in every event and it is indeterminate. >> >> Matt: >> I guess I wouldn't suggest being haunted by the bit >> about knowledge because it assumes that we only have >> knowledge if we have completeness, and that's an >> assumption that I take pragmatism (and the general >> aura of relativism) to be moving away from. Margolis' >> "Indeterminate" is much like Pirsig's "mu," and with >> Dynamic Quality, your comment would make a lot of >> sense alongside what I once called Pirsig's >> "Indeterminancy of Dynamic Quality thesis"--"The problem >> is that you can't really say whether a specific change is >> evolutionary at the time it occurs. It is only with a century >> or so of hindsight that it appears evolutionary." >> (Lila, Ch. 17, 256) >> >> I've always thought that there's a problem in putting >> together the "indeterminancy" of DQ with the "direct >> experience" of DQ thesis. I've never been satisfied with >> the level of activity surrounding that question or the >> proposals for solving it. It seems to me that the >> indeterminancy of DQ might have an impact on our direct >> >> experience of it at the individual level. >> >> Ron said: >> True/false, non contradiction, are tools to create order >> from the flux. Conventions. Useful in the building of >> certain types of knowledge, scientific. The metaphysics is >> a theory on the building of scientific meaning. >> >> Matt: >> Marsha and Ron have been bouncing around these ideas >> in a series of posts, and I would just add that I think >> Ron's probably right about Aristotle, but that when >> Marsha wonders about "Law," it is more because of the >> history of philosophy that has built up from the Greeks. >> The trouble with Aristotle was this notion of "science"--it >> revolved around a notion called "demonstration," and >> the history of Platonic metaphysics, from its roots in the >> "dialectic," goes into Aristotle's notion of "demonstration" >> and continues on to its modern forms that Pirsig wants >> to tear down. >> >> The question for us shouldn't necessarily be what >> Aristotle meant by "demonstration," but rather >> recognition that the trail of people trying to make sense >> of it specifically _and_ its spiritual descendents have >> developed it in a certain, sterile way. Ignoring what >> Aristotle might mean by "demonstration" is a good way to >> resurrect Aristotle's utility for our thinking. >> >> Marsha said: >> Not Marsha's statement. >> So, the Law of Non-Contradiction and the Law of >> Excluded Middle are just tools and were never intended >> to be used to determine Reality? >> >> Matt: >> I would suggest making a distinction between "for-now >> determining" and "Ultimate Determination." The dream >> of Plato was for Ultimate Determination. The Sophists >> probably understood that all determinations were >> "for-now determinings." Aristotle was more interested in >> how we actually determine stuff. The history of >> philosophy might be profitably be read as the rise and fall >> of Plato's dream. >> >> So when Ron says logic is "just a tool for building certainty >> in meaning in the context of scientific inquirey," and >> Marsha shows concern over the "use of the word >> 'certainty,'" I would suggest to Marsha that the trouble >> isn't the "certainty" bit but what Aristotle might mean by >> "scientific." Building certainty, and then acting based on >> whatever little of it we have around, seems to me just an >> unproblematic function of life. The problem was Plato's >> dream, which could just as easily be phrased as John >> Dewey did--the Quest of Certainty (where what is meant >> is "Ultimate Certainty"). >> >> And to set up Andre--Protagoras: "Man is the master of >> all experiences..." >> >> Andre said: >> Very interesting Matt but in light of the MoQ its meaning >> may be a bit doubtful... . I would think the MoQ would >> turn this around and suggest 'experience is the master >> of Man'...or to put it in MoQ parlance: Quality (direct >> experience) is the master of Man...and to play a little >> further: Quality has Man...DQ/SQ is (the master of) Man. >> >> Matt: >> "Quality has Man"--kinda' like Heidegger's "language >> speaks man." >> >> Don't forget, Andre, that Pirsig endorses the Protagorean >> maxim. So we might play around with it, but I don't know >> what about it should "be a bit doubtful." Because >> "experience is the master of Man" sounds too much like >> the Platonic dream of coming face to face with Reality as >> It Really Is, and having that be the truth of us, rather >> than us being the measure/master of things/experiences. >> >> Matt >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Your E-mail and More On-the-Go. 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