Marsha, I see now. My tactic is more "how do you know something is true if you only read it". Yes, science is a faith, which means that if you do not question it, you are a true believer. While there is nothing wrong with this if used in a kind and altruistic way, it is dangerous when one tries to convert others.
Unquestioned belief in science allows for the manipulation of the masses. This is something I am truly against since I am for individualism. I believe Quality can best be expressed through the individual, and not through an institution. This is the difference that I see between ZAMM and Lila. ZAMM is a story about a spiritual awakening, Lila is more about building a church, (imo). The more structure one puts up, the lower the Quality. Mark Mark, No sweet Mark, I think, like you, that science too often is accepted without question. I asked a question. I asked Krimel if Einstein's general theory of relativity was science. No trap --- no trap, no cat, and no mouse. Marsha On Jan 17, 2010, at 10:45 PM, markhsmit wrote: > Marsha, > Oh, so you set a trap, eh. Cat and mouse? Catch Krimel out. > I guess we all learn in our own way. > Mark > > > > No Mark, the subject was not the scientific method. The subject is deductive > logic which Krimel said might have problems because of NonEuclidean geometry > such as Riemannian geometry, which Einstein used in the general theory of > relativity. But he'd rather dance away with a Ouiji board. Fine. > > Marsha > > > > > > > On Jan 17, 2010, at 11:27 AM, markhsmit wrote: > >> >> >>> [Marsha] >>> I think I remember that Einstein used Riemannian geometry in the general >>> theory of relativity. >>> Is the general theory of relativy science? >>> >>> [Krimel] >>> It is a work of theoretical physics. >> >> Marsha: >> I guess you are saying that theoretical physics, Einstein's general theory >> of relativity, is not science because it uses deductive logic which is not >> the basis of the scientific method. >> >> [Krimel] >> Scientists employ any means they wish to construct a theory or a hypothesis. >> They can use induction or deduction. They can see it in a dream or get it >> from a Ouija board. But, the theory has to be testable, It needs to offer >> some improvement in our understanding or our ability to make predictions. >> That is, a new theory has to improve our ability to reduce uncertainty. >> Einstein's theory offered predictions about certain observable events that >> differed from Newton's theory. >> [Mark] >> Marsha, >> What you seem to be asking is what is the scientific method. As Krimel >> suggests, one >> of the results of the scientific method is predictability. In hindsight one >> could say >> that if predictability results, a scientific method was used. This kind of >> explanation >> is useful for illumination purposes. Another way to view it, is that the >> scientific method is really just an elaborate extension of what we all do >> every day. >> When you put your hand in the shower to see if it is warm enough, that is the >> scientific method. The science is predicting that at a certain interval the >> water will >> become warm enough to get in. To become more scientific about it, you would >> time the interval that it takes to get warm with a watch. If you pay >> attention, then >> you may notice that it takes longer if it is cold outside. So, you have to >> introduce >> a new variable, that is the temperature outside. Also the rate of warming >> depends >> on how fast the water is flowing. As the detail of these observations grow, >> the >> predictability gets better. This is no different from other empirical >> studies, they >> just get more and more complicated. Measurement, prediction, measurement >> prediction, introduction of new variable, prediction, measurement, test for >> accuracy. >> >> Those that are good at this, compile many of these variables in their heads >> without >> knowing it and can take jumps. They can amalgamate seemingly unrelated >> observations >> and bring them into the equation. These genius leaps mark a good scientist, >> and >> are similar to genius leaps in art, sports, and, yes, even religion. >> Einstein was >> able to do this with general relativity. However to do so he had to go >> against >> conventional thinking. This is also the mark of a creative scientist, which >> are periodically needed to bridge seemingly wrong data. Many of Einstein's >> predictions took years to prove afterwards. He based much of his >> science on math, which has a remarkable property of predicting what >> we observe. The trick is trying to understand what the equations mean >> in the real world, and whether they are useful. An infinite number of >> equations can be formulated, only a few are useful. An intuitive >> grasp of the right choice is needed as it gets more complicated. >> >> So, there is nothing mysterious about the scientific method, you use >> it all the time. >> >> Cheers, >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________________________________ >> >> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ _______________________________________________________________________ Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... 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