-----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Tuesday, January 19, 2010 12:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [MD] The Upside down evolution
Craig, Krimel, Andre, All. 18 Jan.: > > > [Andre] > > > What about Pirsig surmising that from rituals intellectual patterns > > > may have emerged? [ Krimel ] > > Rituals ARE intellectual patterns. [Bo] A criminal statement :-) [Krimel] If you mean greeting ritual like handshakes nods and smile perhaps you can make a case that they are purely social. But rituals like sacrificing animals on holidays or as penance or tossing virgins into volcanoes [Bo] "Modern" ritual sounds a bit awkward, all rituals are social and as Andre once pointed to, the wine IS supposed to the be the blood ... etc. Now, people who have intellect as part of their constitution will hardly believed in it, but they suspend their skeptical mindset and enjoy the social feeling. [Krimel] These are unquestionably intellectual patterns and people believe in them for intellectual reasons. People who participate in them do so on the basis of their specific world view. The ritual reinforces that world view at the same time it teaches, extends and replicates the intellectual patterns built into the performance of the ritual. [Bo] The social reality is a huge span of time, and since Homo Sapiens (whenever that was) till the Greeks (on the Western Hemisphere) it was "leading edge". Stone Age rituals may have been much like Craig says, but the later mythologies, like the Greek, were much about the gods - sacrifice etc. [Krimel] The point you keep missing is that gods and sacrifices are intellectual patterns. They offer explains of how and why the world is as it is and provides a way to influence and change reality to better suit us. The fact that these intellectual patterns are no longer useful to us does not make them any less intellectual, any less Logos. Relegating them to Mythos is just a way of trying to save the baby while throwing out the bathwater. [Bo] Krimel said when I pointed to this quote to Dave (18 Jan.) > It's like you have Pirsig and Julian Jaynes confused in your head. Jaynes > argued that consciousness or self awareness began in the time you keep > harping on. He made this argument in the late '70 and almost no one but > starry eyed seekers have taken it seriously. You have converted an > interesting but dubious idea into something profoundly goofy. I never quite get Krimel's attitude regarding the MOQ, if he is genuinely interested or just perfunctory speaks moqtalk to be allowed here at least "consciousness" (self- or ordinary) have no place in the MOQ other than inside the 4th level. I mean intellect has coined the term. [Krimel] It is obvious you don't get my attitude at all. Perhaps this explains your failure to effectively address the issues I have raised. [Bo] Well, as all is "intellect" to Krimel why bother, but in the MOQ there is a static Q-level called Social after the Biological and before the Intellectual and it is the Social-Intellectual transition we speak about and, inadvertently or not, Pirsig affirms the SOL (intellect=SOM) [Krimel] Intellect is what humans do. It is who we are. As Pirsig points out we are never interacting with the "real". We interact with our sense data and the concepts we build upon them. That's empiricism. [Bo] If so - now that technology is available to every remote corner - why isn't all humankind "lifestyle" profoundly identical, why does f.ex. Taleban and Al Qaeda fight "Western (intellectual) Values" with such ferocity to prevent them infecting their Islamic (social value) purity? Oh yes the social vs intellectual struggle explains tons of present day SOM-induces quandaries (paradoxes). [Krimel] Whenever we see traits of any sort expressed in every culture on the planet, that is, to me, clear evidence of a genetic basis for the trait. Social traits such as religion, family patterns, social hierarchies or respect for the dead are universal. The specific expression of these biological patterns can be highly variable. Some cultures bury their dead, some burn them, some eat them. Humans are very clever about finding ways to act on these universal impulses and in finding ways to condemn those who prefer some other form of expression. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
