Hello Dave and Bo, Dave, I do not think Bo is debating for debate's sake. Bo, I do not agree with everything you say in every post, though. Sometimes, Bo, you seem so right on but other times I sit here thinking What?!? The squabble over the meaning of intellect vs. intelligence vs. Intellectual Level is good for finding common ground, but there is yet more common ground to be uncovered.
Bo, I want to know your definition of subject-object logic. You state that it IS the intellectual level, yet, by my understanding of it (and Dave's as outlined below), this cannot be true. So, either we misunderstand you, or you are deconstructing the MoQ and the Social Level in particular does not exist and all is Biology. Let's try this on for size. SOL does not equal SOM. It is not SOL, but SOM which is the Intellectual Level (as you state, Bo). Definition of SOL: subject-object logic only. No value judgments are implied. It has existed since the Biological Level. Many species other than our own utilize it in their thought processes. It is evident, for instance, in the predator/prey relationship. Any animal that doesn't know the difference is a dead animal. It is taken to a higher level in humanity, where we use it to invent complex things outside of ourselves to solve problems we happen to have. It is the basis for religion and for science, being what we use to answer questions. It is the basis for society too; for, as Dave points out, without a recognition of "otherness", there would be no need for "rules of society" to exist. If one equates SOL with SOM, then the MoQ is indeed dead. Bo, I happen to think this is not what you mean. I think you are smarter than that. Definition of SOM: Subject-object metaphysics. Value judgments ARE implied. It did not exist in the Biological Level. No other species on Earth has it. It is the next logical progression of SOL. It's what you get when you take SOL as your foundational reality and then construct a Metaphysics from it. If SOM is seen as the definition of the Intellectual Level rather than mere SOL, then the MoQ is saved. The Social Level is constructed out of SOL, starting out as a support mechanism for Biological survival, which grew out of Biology to take on a life of its own. Society evolved into something not just to support biological survival, but ultimately to support its own existence. Ask any politician. SOM grew directly out of the SOL/Social. It is objective thinking, but where "objective" is now defined as an attitude rather than a simple logical recognition of "otherness". It does not exist to benefit Society. It's nature is to seek some kind of Objective Reality. It uses SOL as a tool to accomplish this. If the objective truth it finds is supportive of society, that's nice, but it's not necessary. The objective anthropologist is a perfect example. What do you guys think? Does that bring us any closer? [Dave, where > quotes Bo] We see that we have a biological organism that is somehow aware of a pattern of value "other (social)" on the higher social level which according to the basic ground rules of the MoQ is not suppose to be possible. But you already knew that. The consequences of your proposal are: All levels: Individual discreteness and moral codes by level. Gone. Social level: Must disappear. Gone. Intellectual level: Contains only patterns of intellectual value generated by or conforming to subject and object logic. The MoQ: Gone. Or on a newly emergent static layer above intellectual. Or floating around in the ether, God only knows were, and he's not talking, never has. Do you understand now why so many are vehemently opposed to your interpretation as you are for it? All to accomplish what? > What is it that prevents intellect to be seen as Phaedrus did in in > ZAMM - as SOM - and its emergence described in that book? Aretê then > becomes its parent. This way ZAMM and LILA are seamlessly joined, > instead of the present situation where ZAMM is some embarrassing > relative. Maybe seamless joined but with the MoQ of Lila left in tatters. One sail over 30 years old seamless attached to one ripped to shreds. An old Navy guy like me would rather jump ship than to put to sea with that. Happy sailing. Face it Bo you read, understood, believed, and maybe were even trying to live by the Quality of ZaMM. 15 years later based on further thinking, more research, feedback from readers, and greater maturity RMP expanded a metaphysical sketch that was ZaMM into a detailed full blown metaphysics of Lila. You were shocked and disturbed by his "progress" and have been doing your level best to change it ever since. Regardless of your feelings it is quite clear which book RMP thinks is more important,more valuable going forward. Your ZaMM baby died. Sorry. It lived a good life and supports Pirsig's. Mary - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
