Hi Ian, I believe that everything should be questioned. Even science as a faith. Its view seems to be so accepted that it is abused. I am not sure what faith-based means, in my view it is all faith. None of it is bad.
Thanks, Mark Mark & Marsha, Mark I too use "scientism" as a bogey man, for the same reasons you do I suspect, even though I doubt we agree much on the faith-based alternatives (but to be fair I'm reading you so far through the second hand responses of others). I will try to read your latest. Marsha, thanks for that - I heard you mention it before, but that link is useful - must find time to listen, but a quick look at the introductory texts is very interesting .... "zealous policing of the boundaries of science only proved that scientific materialism had hardened into a rigid and inhibiting dogmatism" Shledrake's words, but whoever said it, I'd agree with it. Nick Maxwell in there too I notice. Ian On Mon, Jan 25, 2010 at 11:23 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > Greeting Mark, > > This CBC series was extremely informative. Many of the scientists > interviewed held other than mainstream ideas and were often > ignored or discredited. > > > How To Think About Science > > If science is neither cookery, nor angelic virtuosity, then what is it? > Modern societies have tended to take science for granted as a way of > knowing, ordering and controlling the world. Everything was subject to > science, but science itself largely escaped scrutiny. This situation has > changed dramatically in recent years. Historians, sociologists, > philosophers and sometimes scientists themselves have begun to > ask fundamental questions about how the institution of science is > structured and how it knows what it knows. David Cayley talks to > some of the leading lights of this new field of study. > > Episode 1 - Steven Shapin and Simon Schaffer > Episode 2 - Lorraine Daston > Episode 3 - Margaret Lock > Episode 4 - Ian Hacking and Andrew Pickering > Episode 5 - Ulrich Beck and Bruno Latour > Episode 6 - James Lovelock > Episode 7 - Arthur Zajonc > Episode 8 - Wendell Berry > Episode 9 - Rupert Sheldrake > Episode 10 - Brian Wynne > Episode 11 - Sajay Samuel > Episode 12 - David Abram > Episode 13 - Dean Bavington > Episode 14 - Evelyn Fox Keller > Episode 15 - Barbara Duden and Silya Samerski > Episode 16 - Steven Shapin > Episode 17 - Peter Galison > Episode 18 - Richard Lewontin > Episode 19 - Ruth Hubbard > Episode 20 - Michael Gibbons, Peter Scott, & Janet Atkinson Grosjean > Episode 21 - Christopher Norris and Mary Midgely > Episode 22 - Allan Young > Episode 23 - Lee Smolin > Episode 24 - Nicholas Maxwell > > http://www.cbc.ca/ideas/features/science/index.html > > I subscribed to this from an iTune podcast, and it was free, but I think > you can also download for free from this website. Maybe some > will find it interesting. > > > Marsha > > > > > > > On Jan 24, 2010, at 9:08 PM, markhsmit wrote: > >> Hi All interested, >> >> I have used the term scientism recently, much to some >> individuals distaste. I am not using that term in a >> discriminatory fashion, as I myself am a scientist. I use >> it to express a very real belief system. So let me briefly >> explain. I looked up the term on Wiki just before >> writing this, since it seems that many use that >> as a truth reference. I do not go along with the >> battle stance of the article, but it gives a useful >> description. >> >> Science is a useful tool. It provides for many things >> which enhance our survival, comfort, and enjoyment. >> Within science I include applied science, such as >> engineering. >> >> Scientism on the other hand is the blind faith that >> science provides the best, and perhaps only >> true interpretation of the world. This is held by >> scientists and non-scientists. The rules of scientism >> are very narrow, and dogmatic. Indeed, it is a >> fast tenant that if science cannot measure it, it >> does not exist. Scientism does allow for growth in >> that if something becomes measurable it does >> exist. A good example is the ghost of gravity that >> Pirsig discusses. Within scientism I am including >> the impact of science on such disciplines as >> psychology, economics, and personal experience. >> The faith in science is abused by those who are >> trying to get what they want. >> >> Scientism depends on objectivity. Everything it >> describes is at arms length. Its proliferation is >> one of the key reasons why SOM has become much >> more dominant than it used to be. While it does have >> some sense in the object it describes, it has no say >> in the personal experience. This is in the realm of >> spiritualism. Because of the hold of scientism on >> our lives, be believe that our experience in this world >> is purely due to the objective world. For example >> the notion that the way to be happy is to make more >> money. Money has nothing to do with happiness, and >> for those that it does, they have replaced an inner feeling >> with an object. This kind of consumption becomes >> endless, because there is no way it can fulfill. >> >> So, along with scientism, and its preachers, has evolved >> a world of objectivism. I have said before that for every >> term in psychology in English, there are forty in Sanskrit. >> We have lost the ability to experience ourselves directly. >> A good example is Richard Dawkins. He denies the existence >> of God using objective reasoning. He has no idea what he >> is talking about. Now, if he had been a devote Christian >> and now was arguing against it, then I might listen. However >> nothing of the sort has happened. Yes, a god maybe does >> not exist in the world of scientism, but that is simply one of >> scientism's beliefs. Science does not have the tools to measure a god. >> >> So let me say to those who claim that spirituality does not >> exist in as real a way as, say, an airplane. You are doing >> battle with windmills. You are fighting your own demons. >> There is no end to that no matter how many tools of >> scientism you use. They are the wrong tools. The Kingdom >> of Science is not what it appears to be. >> >> I will end with some lyrics of Jeff Tweedy from "Wishful Thinking" >> by Wilco. >> >> "Fill up your mind with all it can know >> Don't forget that your body will let it all go >> Fill up your mind with all it can know >> 'Cause what would love be without wishful thinking" >> >> Cheers >> Mark >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars... > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
