Hello Khoo and all, Khoo, you have written a good post. I hate to chop it up for purposes of comment or reply since it is all of a piece. One idea builds inexorably towards the next. You have built a clear path through your logic that gives the reader the impression that they have reached the conclusion before it is stated. > > The interesting thing about this is that it is a picture of universal > moral > order driven by a force that organises pattern upon pattern upon > pattern > that is 'exists' as long as the force maintains its presence. This is > the > universe of the subject object split which depends very much on the > driving > force of karma. Karma, ironically depends on the attachment of the > patterns > to the false idea that they exist, independent of causation. That must > be > the ultimate illusion, because this attachment is a powerful force that > drives entities to life after life
[Mary Replies] Would it be correct then, to equate karma with static patterns of value? > > You cannot however arrive at enlightenment through intellect. The mind > perceives objects through the five sense doors and also creates its own > objects. This process of abstraction is the intellectual level. Every > man > has the capability to do this. It is the very definition of man and > gives > him the ability to manifest society and an existence as far as his > imagination will allow. It does not matter if he is one in a desert > island > or if he is in a remote village in Papua New Guinea or if he is in a > metropolis in Europe. As long as man dallies in his intellect he can > and > creates his own mental objects, These mental objects are also patterns > that > have a life of their own and the sense of "self" or the "ego" is one of > them. You must remember that karmic force drives the creation and > maintainance of these objects, a special case aggregation of which is > the > "subject", thinking it has an existence different from the other > objects. [Mary Replies] Putting this in the context of the debate about the definition of the Intellectual Level sheds new light on it for me, however, I still have questions. > > The argumentation of the MOQ is that the process of intellectual > abstraction > and conceptualisation is the highest level in human evolution. That the > humans can conceive of 'mental objects" and manipulate them is on this > plane > an apex achievement and direct the course of human civilisation. This > is > what is meant by the intellectual level and not the "subject-object > split". > The moral force, or karma drives the "patterning" process either > upwards or > downwards, in terms of organisational complexity, and therefore > "intellectual objects" as they form, have implications for society and > the > Earth as a whole. [Mary Replies] So to be sure I get your meaning, where would you place the S/O split in this context? I take it you see the split as a subset of the Intellectual Level? That is, that the Intellectual Level is capable of something other than (greater than) subject-object thinking. If so, that implies that humans are capable of intellectual abstractions and conceptualizations that do not have a subject vs. object dichotomy as their underlying assumption. Perhaps this just reflects my own limitations, but I am really struggling with this. Can't think of anything at all that is neither a subject nor an object. >the intellectual level makes us all smarter but not any wiser. > [Mary Replies] In the West, we have a big, gaping emotional hole we cannot satisfactorily fill. There are only two choices. Either you accept some flavor of monotheism on faith and find comfort there, or you are backed into a dreary "what's the point?" Existentialist position. For the average Westerner growing up in the average household, society offers no other alternative. The Western religions provide the reason for living. Achievements and good deeds are said to be rewarded in the afterlife. That provides the motivation. It's all ego all the time for eternity. For Westerners, it is the self that lives forever. From a Buddhist perspective, then, that can only mean that the West is trapped on a self-defeating karmic treadmill from which there is no escape. Do Buddhists look down on the West? Mary Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
