Hello Khoo and all, As others have already said, this is a truly excellent post, Khoo! Thank you. It's getting a flag in my Outlook so that I can go back and find it later.
You said: But the Metaphysics of Quality has yet to be fully formed and is only at is preliminary stages of development. Care to expand on that? Mary - The most important thing you will ever make is a realization. > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:moq_discuss- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Khoo Hock Aun > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 3:00 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [MD] Buddhism and Nothingness > > Hi Mary, Marsha, Mark, Khaled, John and all, > > > > Marsha asked: > > I'd like to ask you about what you say above, because it represents the > reason for agreeing with Bo that the fourth level is the SOM level. > It's at > this level that abstract mental objects are reified and manipulated in > a > formal way, with the subject's feelings/opinions supposedly extracted. > > > > Khaled commented: > While Buddhism seem ( if my understanding is right) to be asking of > self > awareness and evaluations of the self, the Abrahamic faith tend to rely > on > blind faith and instant salvation. > > > > John posed this question: > > . …. The Buddha couldn't make sense of it either, which is why he > dumped the > whole idea." And my question is, did the Buddha dump the whole idea? > And > if so, why then do so many of his followers cling to that which he > dumped? > > > > Mark commented: > > I too believe that intellect is not the ultimate tool to use. However > it is > a tool as I interpret it from the Noble Eightfold Path. It takes > discipline > of the mind (whatever that is)…. > > Mark adds: > > Finally, in terms of the religion of Buddhism, I do not necessarily > believe > that both reincarnation or karma needs to be accepted a priori. I have > found that science is a useful tool for exploring and verifying (to > myself) > these precepts. Indeed, science is a tool of the intellect and it is > very > useful once one accepts the metaphysical nature of this discipline. It > may > take a non-cognitive leap, but this is done all the time by great > scientists > (not me). > > > > Mary asked this: > Would it be correct then, to equate karma with static patterns of > value? > Putting this in the context of the debate about the definition of the > Intellectual Level sheds new light on it for me, however, I still have > questions. So to be sure I get your meaning, where would you place the > S/O > split in this context. …..Do Buddhists look down on the West? > > > > Mary also asked from another thread: I think (and you guys can let me > have > it now) that the MoQ is basically a Buddhism wolf in Western sheep's > clothing…... I know it's what I mean when I say that the Intellectual > Level > is totally steeped in SOM and cannot transcend it. I am incapable of > thinking of anything - of forming any thought about anything - that is > not > me (the subject) thinking about something (the object). > > _______________________________________________________________________ > > > > Buddhist explanation of self > > This long-running and at times acrimonius argument over the definition > of > the Intellectual Level within Pirsig’s Metaphysics of Quality reminds > me of > the story of an avid overzealous monk who took the words of his Zen > Master > too literally: > > “A renowned Zen master said that his greatest teaching was this: Buddha > is > your own mind. So impressed by how profound this idea was, one monk > decided > to leave the monastery and retreat to the wilderness to meditate on > this > insight. There he spent 20 years as a hermit probing the great > teaching. > > One day he met another monk who was traveling through the forest. > Quickly > the hermit monk learned that the traveler also had studied under the > same > Zen master. "Please, tell me what you know of the master's greatest > teaching." The traveler's eyes lit up, "Ah, the master has been very > clear > about this. He says that his greatest teaching is this: Buddha is NOT > your > own mind." > > > > The Buddhist explanation of self, self-awareness and ultimately of the > subject goes thus: > > “As we perceive objects in the world (receive sensory input), we create > a > subjective ‘self’ in response. Individual consciousness becomes > conditioned > through the impact of the environment on the senses as well as with our > examination and identification with those experiences. The impact and > recording of an object gives rise to a ‘subject that is recording’ and > thus > our sense of duality, however illusory, is created and intensified.” > > > > Intellectual Level > > > > My own take of the Intellectual Level within the MOQ is that where > society > has evolved an organised communications and institutions to serve and > facilitate intellectual abstraction.as a whole. A collective system of > intellect > as it were as opposed to an individual intellect. > > > > Specialized intellectuals within this level do little else in terms of > the > social and biological. Their output: products of the intellect – may it > be > science, technology, literature, art or music, leadership and religion > – all > of the humanities are deployed by society and us all as individuals > for > their value over social and biological ones. > > > > This category of individuals may have been the clergy, priesthood, > sages or > whichever group providing the “ideas” cutting edge of society. While > universities and research institutes are facets of the intellectual > level of > western societies, other societies may manifest their intellectual > products > differently in culture, religion and the arts. > > > > Now it must be made clear, not all in society develop their > intellectual > capabilities; only those who do so become the intelligentsia, members > of the > knowledge ecosystem that is so much referred to in this day and age. > > > > Their primary tool is not the scientific method per se but their > ability to > generate abstractions after abstractions, mental objects, intellectual > constructions and basically patterns sometimes referred to as models, > designs and templates. > > > > Power of Abstraction and Symbol Manipulation > > > > No doubt, to do what they do, they start with their inherent > capabilities > for abstraction, the creation of mental objects and the formation of > concepts independent of sensory input; their adeptness at this we > consider > intelligence and the communicative tools as language. Pirsig sees a > continuum in the physical manifestation of abstractions as symbols and > their > manipulation as the indicator of intellect and their development all > the way > to an intellectual level where ideas prevail over social and biological > patterns. At the apex of the intellect, abstraction is at the level of > the > imagination. > > > > Subject-Object Logic and the Scientific Method > > > > However, these ideas, concepts and mental abstractions need not be the > product of the scientific method or the subject object logic process > alone. > In the Subject-Object Logic/Scientific method, these abstractions, > mental > objects and concepts, patterns are tested as hypotheses and ‘evidence’ > is > built for their validity within the context of the sensory faculties. > But > the intellectual process also generates a number of abstractions, > mental > objects, concepts and patterns that are not so tested for their > validity. > > > > In their expression, in art, literature, music, they also constitute > the > Intellectual Level. In this sense, yes, the Subject-Object Logic > category > of activities and its SOM which we designate as science is only a sub- > set of > the Intellectual Level. > > > > Pirsig’s SODV paper clearly alludes at its conclusion to the Conceptual > Unknown as the aesthetic common ground/ or Dynamic Quality which draws > out > both the capacity for scientific curiosity and the poetic vision alike. > > > > Subject-Object Split > > > > To go now to the Subject-Object Divide/Split itself, the sense of > “self” is > a response to the perception of other objects. In this sense, it is > interesting that the “subject” is a pattern itself, and an “object” > that > regards itself as different from other “objects”. That the SOM slices > the > Subjective Reality and the Objective Reality between Social and > Biological > levels is a reflection of where the “self” is found to “exist”. > > > > Duality > > > > The duality of mind-matter in the Buddhist context, permeates > throughout all > 31 planes of existence and this appears in various combinations. It > could be > considered that karma manifests as static patterns of value strung by > consciousness from combination to combination. Each resultant > permutation of > the duality is a result of karma. . > > > > I tried once to explain karma and reincarnation to an accountant once > and > compared consciousness to the cashflow, and our karma at any given > point to > the stock; the balance sheet of mind and matter permutation is a static > pattern of value, carried forward at each end of the financial year to > the > next year. Pirsig’s Metaphysics of Quality indeed postulates that only > Quality and its derivatives Mind and Matter exist. > > > > Consciousness > > > > Buddhism conveys that consciousness, of which there are a number of > levels > and the most superficial of which, contributes to the idea of mind and > self. > This superficial level is the patterning process that takes place > always in > the context of and in conjunction with other patterns. > > > > This superficial consciousness exerts karmic weight and can also create > karmic weight. At a deeper level of consciousness; the substratum and > the > primordial ground levels; arrived at by removing the patterning > process, > sense of self and even mind disappears and the reincarnation in terms > of > continuity from life to life becomes apparent. The treatment of these > levels > of consciousness differs in Buddhism and Hinduism; the former focused > on the > diminishing the superficial levels and the latter on seeking the > primordial > level. These levels appear to correspond to Static Quality and Dynamic > Quality respectively. > > > > Attachment and the SOM Bias > > > > For the purposes of the individual in the Buddhist context, the > propensity > to generate mental objects and patterns means living within a world > that is > still not grounded in Reality. An intellectual may “know” vicariously > through these abstractions, but as far as he is caught up in the web of > these abstractions he is not in touch with Reality in terms of direct > experience. > > > > What is usually in the way and the impediment to direct experience is > attachment to these ideas, concepts, mental objects. Just observe how > some > intellectuals fiercely argue for THEIR and their identification with > their > ideas. As mental objects, they can be and as much desired by the > ‘self’, as > are the objects evoked by the other sense faculties. > > > > Attempts to reserve the Subject-Object Logic/Metaphysics exclusively > for the > Intellectual Level is to install and enthrone this subset as the > pinnacle > of society and themselves the result of a bias for subject –objective > metaphysics and scientific materialism. Distraction in this form takes > us > away from Pirsig’s main message: describing a Metaphysics of Quality > that > would go beyond the subjective-objective logic worldview, beyond to the > level of all intellectual abstractions and to experience Reality > directly. > > > > The potential development of a cognitive faculty that apprehends > non-sensuous phenomena may overcome such a bias. In his monograph “Why > the > West Has No Science of Consciousness: A Buddhist View” Alan Wallace > writes: > “The primary instrument that all scientists have used to make any type > of > observation is the human mind. Does this instrument provide us only > with its > own artifacts, without any access to any objective reality existing > independently of the mind? Or if the mind provides us with information > about > the objective world, does it distort it in the process? …… the > scientific > study of the mind in the West was delayed for three centuries after the > inception of the Scientific Revolution, which is tantamount to using an > instrument for three hundred years before subjecting it to scientific > scrutiny. What kind of scientific worldview has emerged as a result of > this > profound oversight and the enormous disparity of our understanding of > the > mind and the rest of the natural world?” > > > > Pirsig adds the following: > > "The Metaphysics of Quality subscribes to what is called empiricism. It > claims that all legitimate human knowledge arises from the senses or by > thinking what the senses provide. Most empiricists deny the validity of > any > knowledge gained through imagination, authority, tradition, or purely > theoretical reasoning. They regard fields such as art, morality, > religion, > and metaphysics as unverifiable. The Metaphysics of Quality varies from > this > by saying that the values of art and morality and even religious > mysticism > are verifiable and that in the past have been excluded for metaphysical > reasons, not empirical reasons. They have been excluded because of the > metaphysical assumption that all the universe is composed of subjects > and > objects and anything that can't be classified as a subject or an object > isn't real. There is no empirical evidence for this assumption at all. > It is > just an assumption." > > (Robert Pirsig, LILA, Black Swan, 1991, rep.1994, p.121) > > > > Buddhism in Sheep’s Clothing > > > > If Pirsig attempted to present Buddhism in Western terms, I find the > Dalai > Lama’s attempt to provide a bridge in his exhortations for science and > Buddhism to work together also in the same vein coming from the other > direction. But the Metaphysics of Quality has yet to be fully formed > and is > only at is preliminary stages of development. > > > > Do Buddhists look down on the West ? > > > > In certain ways the collective karma of the West represents heaven on > earth > because of their intellectual achievements and consequent control over > the > earth’s resources used to quench the desires of its population; its > celebrities live the lives of Gods and Goddesses. If the voracious > consumerism of both material and intellectual products and services by > an > egocentric society conceals an deep emptiness, then the West deserves > compassion from Buddhists, not scorn. > > > > Best Regards > > > Khoo Hock Aun > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
