Hi Mary 20 Feb. u wrote:
> Your argument must be far more subtle than I've been able to > comprehend. Why do you say another level is impossible? But then, I > have an aha moment when you respond to this: It's me never knowing when enough is nuff ;-). Mary before to Joe > > > What works for me is SOM as the intellectual level. Not SOL, mind you, > > > because that has existed since the biological. Bo: > > This is quite a mystery. SOM as the intellectual level works for > > you! Good! Fantastic!! Absolute fabulous!!! "but not SOL"??? "SOL" > > is just the acronym for the interpretation of the MOQ that says that > > SOM is the intellectual level! There is no SOL in the MOQ, only the > > SOL interpretation OF the MOQ [Mary Replies] > Could our difference be this SOM vs SOL question? To me, these are > two very different things. Perhaps to you they are not? Forget about the SOL is just an abbreviation of the old SOLAQI that says what you say "SOM is the intellectual level". > SOL = subject-object logic. > SOM = subject-object metaphysics. > My dog uses SOL but will never study SOM. Your dog surely knows the biological level's "self/not self" distinction as does humans know the social level's "ego/other egos" distinction, but intellect's (while-SOM) S/O distinction is a bottomless chasm between the subject, its world and other subject. I.e. SOM means that this split is seen as existence's fundament ... while the MOQ reduces it to its own highest static good. > SOL is the tool and SOM is the interpretation. Looked at this way, > the door is still open for some other interpretation to supplant SOM. > IMO, all Western metaphysics is some variation on SOM. SOM is the revolution that spawned the Western civilization. In a MOQ hindsight the same process becomes the emergence of the 4th.static level. > SOM is dependent on SOL, but is not simply SOL. .... I understand that you see SOL as the S/O distinction independent of it being regarded as SOM or the 4th. level, but I suggest we skip the SOL as said it's just an abbreviation of the SOLAQI abbreviation. > ..... SOM is the 4th level. It is the static pattern (set of beliefs) > that denies the reality of anything that cannot be validated by SOL. Yes, SOM as the 4th. level is what gives the MOQ its legitimate explanatory power. It fits all intellectual patterns that Pirsig points to in LILA, it harmonizes ZAMM and LILA and otherwise fits all roles that are ascribed to the intellectual level in general. > SOM is exemplified by the scientific method, though there are other > sets of beliefs that can also be used. Right, science is SOM's most prominent pattern, the one that emerged from Aristotle's "form/substance" distinction (an early variety of S/O). However SOM has come to permeate the Western culture totally and has many variants: mind/matter, mental/corporeal, nature/culture, soul/body, and subsets of these and subsets of subsets. > SOL, on the other hand, is the underlying mechanism of brain function > that developed in the Biological Level which separates us from each > other and from everything else. It is fundamental to all thinking > species and requires extreme effort and practice to overcome - to the > extent that it can be overcome at all. Hmmm, this brings it too far.The S/O distinction solely belongs to intellect, the biological "integrity" (an organism not dissolving into the environment) is no S/O and emerged way, before any neural system not to speak of brain. With the Human (mammal) organism's big brain and the social development ... and language!! a more advanced distinction (than biology's self/not self) emerged namely egos or persons with names, ancestry, property different from other ego- persons. But - again - only with the S/O distinction was the intellectual level established. The blind alley that most of this discussion has wandered into is that "intellect" means thinking. To get out they have to back, but have you heard about asses backing. Horses can but not asses, they just stand put. Bodvar Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
