Hi Mary, It didn't dawn on me right away either. Certainly I knew Nagarjuna was definitely using logic in his MMK. I read of the two-truths debate between Tsongkhapa and Gorampa which contains argument with refutation and refutation of refutation of refutation, all logically presented. Even the four noble truths are to be logically understood. I knew from meditation that one is observing/noting thoughts come and go, but it was only a few weeks ago it started to clicked together. The other day a book falls into my possession that spells it out so plainly that I'd have to be deaf and blind not to see it clearly. Ka-chink! It seems so obvious now, it is hard to understand why I didn't see it. Cultural blindness just as you suggested. It took me a very, very long time. Embarrassing really. But better late than never,even if its the tip of the iceberg.
Marsha On May 1, 2010, at 2:03 PM, Mary wrote: > Hi Marsha, > > At various times people here have said that the Intellectual Level cannot be > "just SOM" because that would exclude Eastern intellectual patterns. I've > asked which patterns, but never got a list. It's so refreshing to hear you > come forward with the idea that Buddha was using the same logic we employ to > think through the problems of the human condition. When you start thinking > about this argument that the East doesn't use SOM, and you start dissecting > it - why do they think that, then why do they think "that" all the way > down, a couple of things come to mind. > > Either (like me) many people don't know much about the East and so subscribe > to a lot of vague ideas about what people must think about over there, or > there's a subtle form of racism at work. You know, they're "other" and > "foreign" so they must think differently than we do. Kind of silly. > > Mary > > MarshaV >> Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2010 3:13 PM > >> To recap why I think Buddhism cannot be used as an exception to >> the Intellectual Level being SOM, I offer these to quotes that indicate >> that Buddhism used logic and the scientific method for an objective >> study of 'Mind'. >> >> >> "... So at the beginning, in the middle and at the end of the Buddha's >> path, >> observation plays an extremely important role. This is similar to the >> role that >> objective observation plays in the scientific tradition which teaches >> that when >> we observe a problem we first formulate a general theory followed by >> specific >> hypothesis. We find the same thing happening in the teaching of the >> Four >> Noble Truths and here the general theory is that all things have a >> cause, >> and the specific hypothesis is that the causes of suffering are craving >> and >> ignorance." >> >> " Experience in Buddhism is comprised of two components - the >> objective >> component and the subjective component. In other works, the things >> around >> us and we the perceivers. Buddhism is noted for its analytical method >> in the >> area of philosophy and psychology. What we mean by this is that the >> Buddha >> analyzes experience into various elements, the most basic of these >> being the >> five Skandhas or aggregates - form, feeling, perception, mental >> formation or >> volition and consciousness. The five aggregates in turn can be >> analyzed >> into the eighteen elements (Dhatus) and we have a still more elaborate >> analysis in terms of seventy two elements. This method is analytical >> as it breaks up things. We are not satisfied with a vague notion of >> experience, >> but we analyze it, we probe it, we break it down into its component >> parts like >> we break down the chariot into the wheels, the axle and so on. And we >> do >> this in order to get an idea how things work. When we see for instance >> a >> flower, or hear a piece of music, or meet a friend, all these >> experiences >> arise as a result of components. This is what is called the analytical >> approach. >> And again this analytical approach is not at all strange to modern >> science and >> philosophy." >> >> >> (Peter D. Santina, 'Fundamentals of Buddhism',BAUS) >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
