Bodvar to Andre: You dare refer to the Paul Turner letter ....
Andre: Hi Bodvar, am I wearing something that belongs to you...? Yes I 'dare' refer to Pirsig's letter to Paul. It has cleared away many misunderstandings and misgivings except to those who have a different interpretation and or are blind in believing what they see. Seeing is believing, not the other way around. Bodvar: That's true, thinking (intelligence) predates both the 4th. and 3rd. level. Andre: How you can reach that conclusion after quoting the relevant section of the PT letter is really beyond me. Mr. Pirsig argues that it is silly to extend 'thinking' to the organic level. As he says: 'Our intellectual level is broadening to a point where it is losing all its meaning'...if you extend it 'downwards'. As Arlo argued with John, do photons think? Are molecules making intelligent responses? And, of course the logical conclusion: why stop there? Doesn't Quality possess intelligence? This is silly Bodvar! Bodvar: To say that we experience in the (level in question) way is a platitude and that of the 4th. level being "... experience in the 'abstract' thinking way would have been correct had you said: "we experience that thinking is an abstract phenomenon different from the concrete reality". This is correct because it is SOM. Andre: You are saying this because you want to confirm/justify your SOL argument. I am directly challenging this. You are maintaining the Descartes/Lockean view of man as consisting of mind and matter, a material substance and a mental substance... and once again; never the twain shall meet. Bodvar: This is not Bodvar's but Phaedrus'of ZAMM's radical insight "Criticized by Pirsig" ... bah! You have learned Mr Buchanans tactics it looks. Andre: No, I am continuously re-reading and re-referring to ZMM, LILA, LC, SODV, the archives and the current discuss. Mr. Pirsig HAS criticised your interpretation!!! This has nothing to do with 'Mr. Buchanans tactics'. This is a very lame attempt at some form of dis-creditation Bodvar.( though let it be on record that I do learn loads from dmb's posts. I think he is an invaluable asset to this discuss!). Bodvar: It's the Cartesian (the final architect of SOM according to Pirsig) "intellect" MOQ's 4th. level is supposed to replace... Andre: 'Later Phaedrus felt that three-termed realities are rather unwieldly ( low quality) and rare in metaphysics, and tries to collapse them into one. He saw that if you collapsed them into the object you got a materialist metaphysics. If you collapsed them into the subject, you got an idealist metaphysics. But who had ever collapsed them into value? He tried and saw it could be done. As time went on, he saw that not only could it be done, but that it solved huge philosophic problems that had dogged metaphysics for centuries. It produced harmony where there had been disharmony. It had high intellectual quality.'( Annot.118 LC). And this process occurred at your super-rational level Bodvar? Your Q-level? And you create such twisted, long-winded, contortionist 'evidences' to substantiate you point of view. And you said in a previous post that all this inorganic/organic-social/intellectual dividing was so 'complex'. In MOQ terms, this process occurred through the interplay of inorganic/organic-social/intellectual code of art level Bodvar. It is the Dynamic-static code. It's the code that says 'what's good in life isn't defined by society or intellect or biology. What's good is freedom from domination by any static pattern (e.g. the S/O pattern), but that freedom doesn't have to be obtained by the destruction of the patterns themselves'. (LILA, Chapter 24) See Bodvar, no 'replace' at all. Just finding a place to hang it and enjoy... to be used for your own purposes whenever and wherever it is a better guide. This is the last I'll say on your SOL Bodvar 'cos quite frankly '...I don't find this stuff amusing anymore, all along, along there's incidents and accidents,there's hints and allegations (Paul Simon). Mr. Pirsig was too kind when he referred to your SOL and suggested that, if it has any value, it will percolate to the top. If only you'd read his works, and listen to his sayings whithout your SOL glasses on. Over and out. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
