[Krimel]: > I appreciate the effort to stay focused on the central issues. > Clearly this is one of them. You are not just saying that division > is necessary but that a particular kind of division is necessary. > Maybe it is a translation problem. Why do you think this is > "required"?
[Bo] I think it is required because Reality = X, = Tao, = Green Cheese is good for nothing. However I agree 100% with Reality = Dynamic and Static Quality. [Krimel] That is hardly a response. It doesn't even show the slightest indication that you even understand the nature of the problem. The question was why, not what. But let's start back in kindergarten: why do you think this division or any such division is required? Do you even see the difference between Quality=Reality and "Quality"="Reality"? [Bo] What gives the MOQ its explanatory power is the point of its highest - static level being the previous SOM, [Krimel] This explains nothing. The Greek distinction between continuous and discontinuous, the metaphysical argument between Heraclitus and Parmenides predates SOM and seems more or less identical to SQ/DQ. But they all along with the giant dung beetle lie confortablly together with the MoQ on the intellectual level. [Bo] thus there is no theoretical, abstract, conceptual ... whatever in the MOQ, [Krimel] Right the MoQ is theoretical, abstract, conceptual ... and whatever. [Bo] all this is confined inside its 4th level. [Krimel] Exactly [Bo] It also has a biological level and says that intelligence entered with brain, but does not consider itself as an intelligence (in the mind sense) product. [Krimel] This anthropomorphic language of yours is inappropriate and misleading. Levels don't say anything and the MoQ cannot "consider". It is a product of the mind to be considered. [Bo] Language is the ocean in which we swim so all efforts to introduce language is futile. [Krimel] WTF, without language there would be nothing to introduce and not way to introduce it. Try to engage your mind here, Bo. [Bo] All this about each person a subjective island who may or may not communicate across the waters by language is intellect's (SOM's) business so I leave it. I admire your intellectual - conventional - knowledge, but cut it short, we are here to discuss the MOQ [Krimel] As I pointed out communication of emotion is built in and does not require language. Language is just term we use to apply to communication system that require learning and consensus in order to work. It includes speech, gestures smoke signals, trail markers and smoke signal. >[Krimel] > If you look backwards in time you see all those ancient > civilizations. [Bo] However, speaking about looking backwards in time It's a fact that ZAMM looked back on the past as a paradise lost before the big bad SOM "carved" its holistic existence asunder. And had Pirsig started LILA by "translating" ZAMM in the light of the MOQ he would have been forced to make the Aretê past = the social era and SOM = the intellectual, but he chose to leave these two books as separate universes and the MOQ a mess. [Krimel] I don't see the context or relevance of this to this discussion. There is no social era or intellectual era. Social considerations are no less important today than in the past. See what kind of reaction us get is you fart in and elevator. Intellectual consideration were no less important in the past. Explaining to your children that the earth was created by a giant dung beetle who rolls a fiery ball of its shit across the sky during the course of every day is an intellectual explanation. It may serve a social function but so does talking about the big bang and black holes. [Bo] The one good opening of LILA about "you can't avoid metaphysics" makes nil and void of this carving argument, wherever anthropologists went people had a "metaphysics" (always dualist by the way), but not in the sense of the tribe elder saying; "Bwana, this is our metaphysics", they neither knew any "reality" or "existence" or "experience", this is SOM having lodged so deep that we take its S/O (making theories about reality) for granted. [Krimel] It is factually incorrect to say that all early metaphysics was dualistic. Giant dung beetlism wasn't, neither was Taoism isn't, neither is Judiasm, neither is Buddhism, neither were the myriad of cultures who pointed to earth, wind, fire and water. Ancient and tribal people were far more creative in there metaphysical story telling than you imagine. How foolish are you to say that Pharaoh Akhnaten, the world's first monotheist, had no reality, no sense of his own existence, no experience or no metaphysics. That is shear speculation at best and just plain ignorant at worst. I give you a shaky edge toward the former for the moment but the ice is very thin. [Bo] I had high hopes for you Krimel but you too proved to a be a dud. A moq dud that is, plenty smart otherwise. [Krimel] Uh, thanks I guess but I have to say that so far my original assessment of the nature of SOL's unassailability stands. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
