Marsha, Then you can't make a comment one way or the other about it can you?
-Ron ----- Original Message ---- From: MarshaV <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 11:08:17 AM Subject: Re: [MD] Bo vs. Bob Ron, I am not much concerned with Aristotle since it would be too easy to translate ancient greek by modern points-of-view. Scholars are still arguing what is the proper interpretation. Marsha On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:56 AM, X Acto wrote: > Metaphysics > > that which comes after physics > > regarding the complete works of Aristotle. > as it sat in the library of Alexandria. > > Aristotle called it a collection of class notes > concerning the theory of explanation. > > a misnomer > > on a collection of works most philosophers have not read. > > so how can one make a comment about any of it. > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 1:27:33 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Bo vs. Bob > > > Greetings, > > Seems to me the subject line is a setup! > > > Marsha > > > > p.s. > > met·a·phys·ics - Philosophy The branch of philosophy > that examines the nature of reality. > > > > > On Jul 16, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Matt Kundert wrote: > >> >> Hi John, >> >> John said: >> The thing is, we're born at the top of the mountain. All the >> paths (intellectual games and religions) lead DOWNWARD, >> away from the top of the mountain from that point. >> >> Matt: >> That is an interesting gestalt switch. I think it's _misleading_, >> but that's because I think the kind of "back to origins!" >> rhetoric that is latent in almost every religious and intellectual >> tradition is misguided (the kind of rhetoric that has us talking >> about how DQ the baby is). What about this: being born is >> like falling from the sky, out of nowhere, to the ground. >> Being intellectual is climbing that mountain, or building that >> Tower of Babel, trying to get back to what you imagine as >> the origins. The misleading bit of the very traditional Fall >> Story is that there is somewhere to get back to. I think the >> better part of 2500 years of Western philosophy has taught >> me that there's no there there. The climb up the mountain is >> real, as is the process of climbing into a culture (the length >> of the "fall"), but there is no heaven (which has its parallel in >> the Eastern notion of Enlightenment) where you completely >> evacuate your connection to "fallen" life, the world. I think >> that's just a specific kind of effect created, like everything >> else, from a specific kind of connection to the world. >> >> John said: >> As far as the point that intellect = SOM, I agree completely >> with Bo. That's just the definition of the term and the >> metaphysical reality of the concepts. Intellect is only half >> the evolved human consciousness, however, and Pirsig >> calling the 4th level "intellectual" was due to Pirsig's >> particular blind spot - the one that Phaedrus hated and >> overthrew in ZAMM. >> >>> From my perspective today, (and I'd claim from the snip of >> the Oxford DVD that Mary shared, Pirsig's as well) It should >> have been called something indicating the >> Intellectual/Artistic continuum and perhaps we wouldn't >> have suffered so much conflict and strife in our attempt at >> making this map back up the mountain. >> >> Because Intellect IS SOM. Make no mistake about that. >> >> Matt: >> Might you more systematically deploy the kinds of >> definitions you are using for your terms. Because, >> argumentatively speaking, you beg the question about >> whether intellect is SOM or not when you define it that >> way. The obvious response is, "Well, of course 'intellect is >> SOM' if you _define_ it that way. What if you don't?" >> Which means we need to talk about what parts of reality >> are being picked out by our terms, and then whether they >> fit together in the specified kind of way (and then whether >> Pirsig also thinks they fit together in the specified kind of >> way). >> >> For example, do you differentiate between a >> "subject/object distinction" and a "subject/object >> metaphysics"? That'd be a good place to start. And then, >> "how do you define metaphysics and the performance of >> that activity (if it is an activity)?" >> >> You seem to be saying that you wish the levels had been >> named Inorganic/Biological/Social/Consciousness, with >> the top level broken into, roughly, Classic and Romantic, >> as Pirsig had it in ZMM. Right? If that is so, then--moving >> to Pirsig interpretation--you'd need to defend the notion >> that in ZMM (or, in some other complicated inferential >> pattern based on what he's said), Pirsig defined "classic" >> as "SOM." That doesn't strike me as true, but I haven't >> read ZMM in a long while (and have no complex >> interpretational pattern on hand). The interpretation of >> "the S/O distinction as classic" strikes me as decent, but >> I'd need to know more about what you mean by >> "metaphysics," and how you differentiate (or relate) >> Pirsig's enemy in ZMM (dialectic) to his enemy in Lila >> (SOM), and both to how you perceive a reconstruced, >> I've-successfully-defeated-my-enemy version of any of >> these items (i.e., are you saying there's no difference >> between SOM before and after any critique of it?). >> >> These, I think, might be some of confusions that haunt >> appreciation of what ideas hide in the slogan >> "intellect=SOM." >> >> Matt >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> The New Busy is not the old busy. 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