yawn...
On Jul 18, 2010, at 8:35 AM, X Acto wrote: > Marsha, > > so who made you the grammar police? > > what gives YOU the right? > > What, now we all must bow to the great Marsha's sense of Grammar? > > Who made YOU the authority? > > stop trying to control what I think! > > it's all just inter-related patterns of value > > not this not that > > try dancing in the moonlight! > > -Ron > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: MarshaV <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 11:58:41 AM > Subject: Re: [MD] Bo vs. Bob > > > Ron, > > You finished your post with "so how can one make a > comment about any of it." > > Try using the rules of grammar if you expect to be > properly understood. > > > Marsha > > > > > > On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:50 AM, X Acto wrote: > >> Marsha, >> And all I did was comment >> on it was a branch of philosophy >> that examines explanations. >> >> -Ron >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ---- >> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 11:43:49 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] Bo vs. Bob >> >> >> Ron, >> >> I cannot comment about Aristotle's definition of >> metaphysics; that is true, and I didn't comment >> on Aristotle's definition of anything, but offered >> a simple, modern definition: >> >> met·a·phys·ics - Philosophy The branch of philosophy >> that examines the nature of reality. >> >> >> Marsha >> >> >> On Jul 17, 2010, at 11:25 AM, X Acto wrote: >> >>> Marsha, >>> Then you can't make a comment one way or the other >>> about it can you? >>> >>> -Ron >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ---- >>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >>> To: [email protected] >>> Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 11:08:17 AM >>> Subject: Re: [MD] Bo vs. Bob >>> >>> >>> Ron, >>> >>> I am not much concerned with Aristotle >>> since it would be too easy to translate ancient >>> greek by modern points-of-view. Scholars are >>> still arguing what is the proper interpretation. >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> On Jul 17, 2010, at 10:56 AM, X Acto wrote: >>> >>>> Metaphysics >>>> >>>> that which comes after physics >>>> >>>> regarding the complete works of Aristotle. >>>> as it sat in the library of Alexandria. >>>> >>>> Aristotle called it a collection of class notes >>>> concerning the theory of explanation. >>>> >>>> a misnomer >>>> >>>> on a collection of works most philosophers have not read. >>>> >>>> so how can one make a comment about any of it. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ---- >>>> From: MarshaV <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 1:27:33 AM >>>> Subject: Re: [MD] Bo vs. Bob >>>> >>>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> >>>> Seems to me the subject line is a setup! >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> p.s. >>>> >>>> met·a·phys·ics - Philosophy The branch of philosophy >>>> that examines the nature of reality. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Jul 16, 2010, at 8:44 PM, Matt Kundert wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Hi John, >>>>> >>>>> John said: >>>>> The thing is, we're born at the top of the mountain. All the >>>>> paths (intellectual games and religions) lead DOWNWARD, >>>>> away from the top of the mountain from that point. >>>>> >>>>> Matt: >>>>> That is an interesting gestalt switch. I think it's _misleading_, >>>>> but that's because I think the kind of "back to origins!" >>>>> rhetoric that is latent in almost every religious and intellectual >>>>> tradition is misguided (the kind of rhetoric that has us talking >>>>> about how DQ the baby is). What about this: being born is >>>>> like falling from the sky, out of nowhere, to the ground. >>>>> Being intellectual is climbing that mountain, or building that >>>>> Tower of Babel, trying to get back to what you imagine as >>>>> the origins. The misleading bit of the very traditional Fall >>>>> Story is that there is somewhere to get back to. I think the >>>>> better part of 2500 years of Western philosophy has taught >>>>> me that there's no there there. The climb up the mountain is >>>>> real, as is the process of climbing into a culture (the length >>>>> of the "fall"), but there is no heaven (which has its parallel in >>>>> the Eastern notion of Enlightenment) where you completely >>>>> evacuate your connection to "fallen" life, the world. I think >>>>> that's just a specific kind of effect created, like everything >>>>> else, from a specific kind of connection to the world. >>>>> >>>>> John said: >>>>> As far as the point that intellect = SOM, I agree completely >>>>> with Bo. That's just the definition of the term and the >>>>> metaphysical reality of the concepts. Intellect is only half >>>>> the evolved human consciousness, however, and Pirsig >>>>> calling the 4th level "intellectual" was due to Pirsig's >>>>> particular blind spot - the one that Phaedrus hated and >>>>> overthrew in ZAMM. >>>>> >>>>>> From my perspective today, (and I'd claim from the snip of >>>>> the Oxford DVD that Mary shared, Pirsig's as well) It should >>>>> have been called something indicating the >>>>> Intellectual/Artistic continuum and perhaps we wouldn't >>>>> have suffered so much conflict and strife in our attempt at >>>>> making this map back up the mountain. >>>>> >>>>> Because Intellect IS SOM. Make no mistake about that. >>>>> >>>>> Matt: >>>>> Might you more systematically deploy the kinds of >>>>> definitions you are using for your terms. Because, >>>>> argumentatively speaking, you beg the question about >>>>> whether intellect is SOM or not when you define it that >>>>> way. The obvious response is, "Well, of course 'intellect is >>>>> SOM' if you _define_ it that way. What if you don't?" >>>>> Which means we need to talk about what parts of reality >>>>> are being picked out by our terms, and then whether they >>>>> fit together in the specified kind of way (and then whether >>>>> Pirsig also thinks they fit together in the specified kind of >>>>> way). >>>>> >>>>> For example, do you differentiate between a >>>>> "subject/object distinction" and a "subject/object >>>>> metaphysics"? That'd be a good place to start. And then, >>>>> "how do you define metaphysics and the performance of >>>>> that activity (if it is an activity)?" >>>>> >>>>> You seem to be saying that you wish the levels had been >>>>> named Inorganic/Biological/Social/Consciousness, with >>>>> the top level broken into, roughly, Classic and Romantic, >>>>> as Pirsig had it in ZMM. Right? If that is so, then--moving >>>>> to Pirsig interpretation--you'd need to defend the notion >>>>> that in ZMM (or, in some other complicated inferential >>>>> pattern based on what he's said), Pirsig defined "classic" >>>>> as "SOM." That doesn't strike me as true, but I haven't >>>>> read ZMM in a long while (and have no complex >>>>> interpretational pattern on hand). The interpretation of >>>>> "the S/O distinction as classic" strikes me as decent, but >>>>> I'd need to know more about what you mean by >>>>> "metaphysics," and how you differentiate (or relate) >>>>> Pirsig's enemy in ZMM (dialectic) to his enemy in Lila >>>>> (SOM), and both to how you perceive a reconstruced, >>>>> I've-successfully-defeated-my-enemy version of any of >>>>> these items (i.e., are you saying there's no difference >>>>> between SOM before and after any critique of it?). >>>>> >>>>> These, I think, might be some of confusions that haunt >>>>> appreciation of what ideas hide in the slogan >>>>> "intellect=SOM." >>>>> >>>>> Matt >>>>> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ >>>>> The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. >>>>> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 >>>>> 3 >>>>> 3 >>>>> 3 >>>>> 3 >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
