Marsha, Mary, Multitude. 24 July
Marsh to Mary, > Maybe the difficulty is the Intellectual pattern that states objects > are not objects, but patterns of value: SOM wiped out, end of story. This is THE point Marsha, Pirsig wen to great lengths to show that SOM's substance - or objects - don't correspond to MOQ'a inorganic level, but so many seems tho think that SOM still rules that the said inorganic patterns are objects and - consequently - that intellectual patterns are "subjective thoughts". And as long as this continues the MOQ is lame and tame. Mary had written: > > Arlo and dmb are struggling with a set of platypi below due to an > > incorrect definition of the Intellectual Level. The unsolvable > > questions they are asking can be dissolved if it is understood that > > the Intellectual Level is not brains, smarts, intellect, or degree > > of intelligence. Nor is it a bucket where you put thoughts, > > premises, ideas, or 'thinking itself'. If instead of this, you > > define the Intellectual Level as a pattern of values which value > > subject-object logic and deny the primacy of value in the Universe, > > then all these questions go away, or become moot, or are solved, > > etc. This is just RIGHT!! Arlo has become a mean little Jr. of late and his "agony" over us strong interpreters i a little pathetic - almost as exasperated as Andre - while DMB primarily is a thinker and at times his logic lands him in SOL-land - as in the beginning of this Babylonian thread and when referring to Mythos - Logos as matching the Social - Intellectual one. That's promising I really care for what he says. Bodvar > > > > Best, > > Mary > > > >> Arlo to dmb: > >>> Are you suggesting that should a priest use mathematics, the > >> calculations are "social"? Is "2+2=4" a social pattern if it is > >> used to count sheep in the field, but an intellectual pattern in a > >> modern classroom? > >> > >> dmb to Arlo: > >>> Well, not exactly. But when kids are learning how to add in the > >> modern classroom they are introduced to the concept in very > >> concrete terms. A math text book at that level might even have a > >> picture of two pairs of sheep, for example, when introducing the > >> concept. This developmental process probably recapitulates the > >> evolutionary process as a whole. So, what I'm saying is just that > >> math was born in a practical, concrete situation and was simply a > >> matter of counting things like sheep, cows, days, slaves, soldiers, > >> taxes and the like. Some of the oldest written records, in fact, > >> calculate portions of beer per slave per day. This takes > >> intelligence and the use of symbols but it is relatively concrete > >> or rather it's not very abstract. > >> > > [Andy] > >> Counting sheep by scratching lines in the sand is a total > >> abstraction of concrete thing. It's not a little of this, a little > >> of that. The lines in the sand have no value but in the mind where > >> they represent something. Even without numerals and arithmetic it's > >> pure abstraction. > >> > >> I have no position on whether this gets them the "intellect" > >> distinction. I'm not going to get into what you two are doing, > >> which is arguing over which algorithm is best for sorting sand. You > >> aren't proposing to do anything with the piles except stamp your > >> name on them. It just squeezes all the value out of the metaphysics > >> to treat it this way. > >> > >> None of us ever in our lives complete the work of defining any one > >> of the levels. It is a fool's errand. No, I'm not calling you > >> foolish personally. Only your current activity. Don't recant or > >> apologize; the social ledger need not balance here. I just hope you > >> find a better way to apply your intellect. > >> > >> To properly condemn what you're doing I feel I should name it. So > >> I'll call it Definism. I don't know what to call my position. > >> > >> Subsequently, I looked up Definism and found the word already in > >> use. It fits well enough. > >> > >> Arlo to dmb: > >>> ... I am not suggesting that intellect dominated the social worlds > >>> of > >> these ancient cultures, far from it. Its obvious that social > >> patterns were in control, but I think in these calculations we see > >> the appearance of newly emerging intellectual patterns. > >> > >> > >> dmb to Arlo: > >>> Yea, something like that. Maybe they were the direct precursors. I > >> mean, it seems like we still live with both levels and it's easy to > >> see how one grew out of the other. Alchemy and chemistry, astrology > >> and astronomy, numerology and mathematics, ritual calendars and > >> scientific time, the soul and the self, etc.. And I think this > >> general shift has everything to do an increased power of > >> abstraction. The idea that intellectual values only recently came > >> to dominate and are still being resisted by neo-Victorian > >> reactionaries shows, I think, that we are still living with both. I > >> mean, in some sense you can see how ancient Babylonians thought by > >> looking at social level people in our own time. It wasn't that long > >> ago, you know? It must have been something like a fundamentalist's > >> mind. > >> > > [Andy] > >> You think intellect dominates society in any part of this world > >> right now? I think you're fooling yourself. > >> > >> Mumbling in a puddle of piss, > >> Andy > >> Moq_Discuss mailing list > >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > >> Archives: > >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
