[Marsha] We are suspended in language, but I would think that on this MD list it is understood that 'metaphysics' is concerned with the nature of reality, and that in discussing the MoQ we are discussing Reality as Quality.
[Arlo] Of course "metaphysics" is concerned with the "nature of reality". But it is NOT reality itself. It is a MAP that attempts to define the indefinable. Pirsig's map is a very high-quality map, but it is still a map. According to Pirsig's map, the entirety of "reality" can be described as DQ and SQ. So when someone says "the levels aren't patterns of value", its a gross confusion of the map with the reality it describes. Or you can speculate about a third metaphysical category "levels" that exist apart from DQ and SQ, but you better be able to deal with the untenable position that puts you in. Or you can bury your head in the sand, as seems to be the case. [Marsha] The baseless statement was your declaration of likeness between what you and RMP think. [Arlo] I am open about where Pirsig and I disagree. But in the case of his understanding that the SOL undermines the MOQ, I fully agree. And when one examines the repeated need you all have to dodge simple questions, its no wonder why he felt that way. In any event, my original point was that NO analogy capable of producing meaning can escape its own analogous nature. Or, in my previous words, all intellectual patterns powerful enough to be meaningful are inherently recursive. Pirsig's metaphysics are a map, an intellectual pattern, an attempt to define the indefinable, a pointer, a finger pointing at the moon... an analogy. There is no issue with "self-containment", as this is the nature of ALL representative systems. Ignoring the question "what type of pattern are the levels themselves?", creating a long thread of evasions and dodges, may help you cling to an inconsistent map, if that's what you choose, but that's low-quality... in my opinion. So back to that, Marsha, do you think the "levels" themselves are "patterns of value"? Or do they exist apart from DQ/SQ? Are all "classifications" or "categories" also independent of the DQ/SQ reality, or just those used by Pirsig? Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
