Hi Matt, On Thu, Aug 19, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Matt Kundert <[email protected]> wrote: > >> When we think about why building a Muslim community center there may >> be regarded as objectionable (even though it ought not be prohibited) >> is that there doesn't seem to be moderate Islam of the sort where >> there are Muslim leaders willing to come out and say that Salmon >> Rushdie and apostates in general ought not be killed or to stop >> apologizing for those threatening the lives of cartoonists. Most >> Muslim's understanding of Islam is actually a very real and present >> danger to religious freedom. > > Really? My sense of the world is opposite that. Harris has a point, and > saying "everyone's got extremists" too soon does tend to white-wash what real > world choices we do need to make in distinguishing practically between > different practices. But my sense of the Islamic community is not that > moderate Islam is a small fraction, and militaristic Islam a large one (to > distinguish from your use of "militant"). I have no polls or sophisticated > analysis/evidence to back up that sense, but I tend to be wary of things too > close to talking points that came from an ideological-machine intent on > generating fear. I don't think you or Harris care for that, but I also can't > say I'm generally impressed by lines of reasoning that find the community > center objectionable.
Steve: I can understand why people would think it is offensive as presented as a Mosque at ground zero given that the attack was made in the name of Islam, but I also think that characterization was a bit of "Southern Strategery" knowing that the liberals would defend religious freedom and many would find that defense offensive. They are playing on bigotry as usual, but I don't think one _has_ to be bigoted toward Muslims to reason that the Twin Towers was a symbolic attack in the name of Islam and that building a Mosque at the sight will be regarded in certain circles seeking the destruction of America as another symbolic victory, but I am willing to let them have that victory claim as a small price to pay for religious freedom. Personally, I don't care. It sounds like a YMCA or JCC or something once you look into it. Big deal even if it were a Mosque unless we ourselves blow it up into a big symbolic deal . Who benefits from all this silly bickering over a Mosque? Who always benefits? (Ok, I've been reading Howard Zinn lately.) >Religion, like politics and all other social and intellectual patterns, are >local, and I doubt growing up an American Muslim will make you more disposed >to bombing buildings, just so long as we take care of the other "lo > cal" bits surrounding (food to eat, good education, etc.). > > I'm disposed to adapting Rorty's line: "take care of freedom, and [religion] > will take care of itself." Always understanding, of course, that by > "freedom" isn't just meant the negative liberty that the libertarian-esque > right reduces it to. Steve: In the US Muslims are mostly moderate (moderate by Muslims standards that is). Pew Poll in 2007 (Reuters) - About one-quarter of young American Muslims believe to some extent that suicide bombings can be justified to defend Islam, while nearly 80 percent of all U.S. Muslims reject such attacks, a survey showed on Tuesday. http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2244293620070522 While there is something to say about freedom, at the same time I think religious beliefs do matter. When well-educated middle-class Muslims claim that what motivates them to fly planes into billings or a strap a bomb to themselves is love of martyrdom, I think we ought to believe them or at least take seriously the possibility that people actually believe what they say they believe. There is something to the economic oppression thing but there is real religious oppression going on too. Let's consider all the rioting over cartoons and former free-loving hippie Cat Steven's comments on being asked about Salman Rushdie: "Under Islamic Law, the ruling regarding blasphemy is quite clear; the person found guilty of it must be put to death. Only under certain circumstances can repentance be accepted.... The fact is that as far as the application of Islamic Law and the implementation of full Islamic way of life in Britain is concerned, Muslims realize that there is very little chance of that happening in the near future. But that shouldn't stop us from trying to improve the situation and presenting the Islamic viewpoint wherever and whenever possible. That is the duty of every Muslim..." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
