Ian said: Etymology is a major reason I like Pirsig. In order to avoid the (dirty word) "evolutionary psychology" or EvoPsych, I would point out that the MoQ is "evolutionary" and the top two levels we spend miles of email debating are ... err ... "psychological" That dirt is the physio-biological bottom half of the story. Doh ! How perfectly the story fits.
dmb says: What? I have no idea what what mean. Dirty word? Story fits? Bottom half? Shall I take this as evidence of drug abuse or just as an example of non-cognitive babbling? > > Ian > > > > On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 10:08 PM, david buchanan <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > steve said to all: > > 20 years after Lila, I wonder how it would be read by someone new to > > Pirsig. Would the ideas seem relevent? As we get more and more distance > > from the positivists, I wonder how young people today would read Pirsig's > > attacks on the fact-value dichotomy. Would they wonder just who it is > > Pirsig thinks he is arguing against? > > > > > > dmb says: > > I'd very much like to know what seems relevant to young people these days > > and I wonder how many college freshmen could say what "positivism" or "the > > fact-value dichotomy" means. If the stories I've heard from university > > professors can be taken as a generalization, kids these days are shallow, > > complacent and conservative. What is today's version of beatniks, hippies, > > punks or goths? Isn't there supposed to be some kind of creative form of > > rebellion in every generation? I digress. Back to the point. I'd say Pirsig > > is pretty clear and concrete about what he's arguing against. One of the > > things he's working against is the irrelevance of philosophy. Long before > > he identified with the pragmatists, he said "metaphysics is good if it > > improves everyday life; otherwise forget it." > > > > Less than one percent of college students choose philosophy as their major > > field but the majority will take a class or two. I wonder how many poor > > freshman sign up for philosophy 101 expecting to learn profound secrets or > > deep truths and find arcane nonsense instead. Pragmatism was practically > > invented to help us dispense with the fake problems and endless verbal > > disputes that dissuade so many freshman. Supposedly, pragmatism is a method > > for solving human problems more than philosophical problems. In fact, the > > parameters of radical empiricism (all experience counts and whatever is > > beyond experience should not count) can be seen as a kind of > > epistemological humility. It's humanism in the sense that it recognizes the > > limited nature of our truths. James thought humanism was another name for > > pragmatism. Some people take that whole "man is the measure" idea as a form > > of arrogance but I think it's quite the opposite. Did you know that human, > > humility and humble all come from a comm > > on root meaning "dirt"? I kid you not. > > > > If you were a freshman and my aim was to get you excited enough about > > philosophy to take at least one more class, which would be more likely to > > enthuse them? A) Assign Descartes, Hume and Kant or B) Assign Zen and the > > Art? Richard Rorty told Cornel West that he'd give his right arm to write > > like William James. Ever seen Cornel West give a sermon - er um - I mean - > > give a lecture? He's like a jazz artist of ideas. Dewey helped to found the > > ACLU and NAACP and for decades he had an opinion on everything that > > mattered and people wanted to know what it was. I mean, teachers should be > > able to show that philosophy is a living, breathing thing. I wish some > > professionals would step up with a response to the new atheists. Wouldn't > > that be fun to watch? I mean, let's face it, we're talking about two > > scientists and a journalist - but I digress. The point is simply that young > > people will not see the relevance of philosophy if their introduction to it > > means grappling with arcane jargon in > > order to entertain fake doubts and consider artificial problems. We can > > save that kind of grappling for more advanced students and those headed to > > grad school. I guess it's obvious. The first-year reading assignments have > > to be readable by first-year students. You want to challenge but not > > overwhelm. The pragmatists are good for that too. > > > > The fact-value dichotomy seems like such a clinical name for the issue, > > especially when you think about the kind of thing James and Pirsig are > > doing. Values are so central that facts are something like a subspecies of > > value. Pirsig's objection to SOM could be boiled down to an objection to > > the supremacy of facts (objective truths) and the denigration of values > > (merely subjective preferences). Radical empiricists say that value > > judgements come first and the reasons come later so that it's prioritized > > in some sense even epistemologically. This is part of the reason they both > > talk about the role of one's basic temperament in taking the views we take > > - and that's just one of the ways that different values produce different > > perspectives. As they paint it, values are so intertwined with facts and > > knowledge that the distinction starts to seem quite untenable and downright > > unrealistic. > > > > Steve said: > > Maybe this aspect of SOM that attracted most of us to the MOQ is a straw > > man. If Pirsig and the other antiSomers are successful, at least at some > > point it will be a straw man, right? Someday young people just won't even > > know what Pirsig was going on about. At the time I got into Pirsig, I > > really felt like the notion of objectivity was being used to push values > > into some realm of noncognitive babble. Is that still happening today? > > > > dmb says: > > > > They say that ideas have a life cycle. They begin as heresy, become truth, > > and then they end on a greeting card. > > > > > > I couldn't tell you if the realm of "noncognitive babble" is still a > > happening place these days because I don't know what that means. > > > > > > How can I put this? > > > > > > If anti-SOMers are successful - and let's say that success means philosophy > > is taught from their critical perspective - then every philosophy student > > will still be challenged to re-think everything. In our culture at least, > > there is a common sense realism in everyone's basic, unphilosophical > > beliefs. In this sense, anyone who's ever worn a band-aid is a realist, you > > know? These young people might realize that reality is a lot more plastic > > and intimate than they thought. And, just to go a bit too big with this, if > > this realization were widespread it might inspire a for the art in all > > things and general atmosphere of creativity and engagement. > > > > Also, please notice that a former problem is not the same thing as a straw > > man. The first is one means success or progress and the second is a bogus > > fiction. > > > > > > > > Steve said: > > > > Here are some examples of the views that Pirsig attacks with regard to the > > dichotomy between facts and values taken from an article on Hilary Putnam > > who also made such critiques on SOM: (1) No statement is both evaluative > > and factual. (2) There is no logical connection between evaluative and > > factual statements. (3) Factual statements are true or false independently > > of any value judgments. (4) Facts can, and values cannot, be established > > beyond controversy. (5) Evaluative statements are neither true nor false. > > Are these dogmas ones that people still adhere to? Or have Pirsig, Putnam, > > and the other critics of the fact-value dichotomy been successful? > > > > > > > > > > > > dmb says: > > > > Well, those are philosophical dogmas that most people will never entertain, > > at least not in those terms. It seems quite artificial even to me. it's not > > really about facts or values so much as it's about statements. I can see > > that it's all very carefully thought out and exact and yet it's empty and > > lifeless. I mean, I don't think that way of defeating the problem isn't > > very moving. i'd even say this analytic approach is part of the problem or > > a symptom of it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > > Archives: > > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
