I stopped being horrified 8 or so years ago Marsha (I read Pirsig) .... now I prefer to find things I can do about it ;-) Ian
On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 11:05 AM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Sep 12, 2010, at 5:52 AM, Ian Glendinning wrote: > >> Hi Steve, Marsha, I keep hearing clips and trailers to Hawking hawking >> his new book around, but haven't managed to catch one yet. That >> "philosophy is dead" attention grabber is surely just that, one in a >> long line starting with Nietzsche and taking in Pirsig's >> philosophologists. Arrogant enough to get a reaction. > > > And repeated often enough on this roadshow to sell the new Hawking > book by the latest and greatest media-created scientific celebrity. I > was horrified. Thumbs down to Stephen Hawking and Leonard Mlodinow. > > Marsha > > > > >> >> Back to Steve's point. >> >> Those 5 Putnam statements are definitive statements from the point of >> view of someone who believes the definition of a fact matters. The >> number of "real life" cases where that holds is vanishingly small - >> those repeatable laboratory cases where scientific method applies. The >> value of philosophy is surely to integrate the fact / value views, not >> help reinforce the divide. >> >> The problem with the Hawking / Dawkins "arrogant science" view is that >> they believe that view IS "real life" and everything else has "lesser" >> value. >> >> I do still believe we need to be tilting against the windmill Steve. >> Public media still has a thing about "what science says ..." being >> distinct from "what a politician says ..." Yes, young (inexperienced) >> people (unless they are scientists or analytic philosophers - >> inexperienced ones) will still form a mix of those that do or don't >> see or even care about the divide. In my experience they range from >> the whatever to the vehement, just like we grey beards do, only we >> should know better. >> >> Ian >> >> On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 8:53 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Btw, I was listening to an interview with Garry Parsons who >>> was a coauthor with Stephen Hawking on the new book 'The Grand >>> Design.' The interview was on a pbs program. One of the last statements >>> Parsons made was "Philosophy is dead!" He then went on to say that >>> philosophy cannot tell us anything about the world we live in. >>> >>> Pretty arrogant, yes? >>> >>> >>> >>> Marsha >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 3:43 PM, MarshaV wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Hi Steve, >>>> >>>> Interesting, and reminded me of asking how many angels can >>>> dance on the head of a pin. But fun! And I image it has created a >>>> quattuordecillion opportunities for papers to be published. And one >>>> can only wonder about those 'ideal conditions'? Interesting... >>>> >>>> I have often wondered about the difference between a static >>>> pattern of value representing a conventional truth (Tim is a >>>> human.) and a static pattern of value representing a >>>> conventional judgement (Tim is an hypocrite), or something >>>> like that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Marsha >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sep 10, 2010, at 12:27 PM, Steven Peterson wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi All, >>>>> >>>>> 20 years after Lila, I wonder how it would be read by someone new to >>>>> Pirsig. Would the ideas seem relevent? As we get more and more >>>>> distance from the positivists, I wonder how young people today would >>>>> read Pirsig's attacks on the fact-value dichotomy. Would they wonder >>>>> just who it is Pirsig thinks he is arguing against? >>>>> Maybe this aspect of SOM that attracted most of us to the MOQ is a >>>>> straw man. If Pirsig and the other antiSomers are successful, at least >>>>> at some point it will be a straw man, right? Someday young people >>>>> just won't even know what Pirsig was going on about. At the time I got >>>>> into Pirsig, I really felt like the notion of objectivity was being >>>>> used to push values into some realm of noncognitive babble. Is that >>>>> still happening today? >>>>> >>>>> Here are some examples of the views that Pirsig attacks with regard to >>>>> the dichotomy between facts and values taken from an article on Hilary >>>>> Putnam who also made such critiques on SOM: >>>>> >>>>> http://www.philosophy.su.se/texter/putnam.htm >>>>> >>>>> (1) No statement is both evaluative and factual. >>>>> >>>>> (2) There is no logical connection between evaluative and factual >>>>> statements. >>>>> >>>>> (3) Factual statements are true or false independently of any value >>>>> judgments. >>>>> >>>>> (4) Facts can, and values cannot, be established beyond controversy. >>>>> >>>>> (5) Evaluative statements are neither true nor false. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Are these dogmas ones that people still adhere to? Or have Pirsig, >>>>> Putnam, and the other critics of the fact-value dichotomy been >>>>> successful? >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> Steve >>>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>>> Archives: >>>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ___ >>>> >>>> >>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>>> Archives: >>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> >>> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html > > > > ___ > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
