Ian to John, Andre, DMB:

Increasing value is a better empirical view than causation, but this
isn't any easier to explain (eg to a MoQish judge)

Andre:
No, you're right Ian, it doesn't make it any easier. But I do think that it 
makes us a
little more careful before passing judgement.As Mr. Pirsig keeps saying, there 
is a lot
more going on than a conventional subject-object analysis would suggest.


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