Mark, You surprise me. It sounds like you're going to wait for the Great White Scientific Hope, wearing a white hat, to ride up on his white horse, Physics, to save the day? As best I can figure out, most physicists are still scientific realists and ignore the quantum enigmas. It's interesting because I always thought the drive of the MoQ was to experience first-hand DQ, "pure experience" or the Undifferentiated Continuum, not just to talk about it.
Marsha On Oct 26, 2010, at 7:33 PM, 118 wrote: > Hi Marsha, > I'll get to that book when I find it in the library, sounds interesting. If > one were to divide metaphysics into the contemplation of the subjective and > contemplation of the objective, I would state that the pendulum has swung > very far into the objective. The recent rise of esoteric religions such a > theosophy and new age dreams are adding weight to bring the pendulum back > down the other way. It is indeed dark ages for subjective contemplation, > and in that sense, man is at a very low point at this period in time. > Sciences such as physics are breaking through however and it is just a > matter of time. The Tao is unchangeable in the end, swinging back and > forth. > > Mark > > On Tue, Oct 26, 2010 at 1:20 PM, MarshaV <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> Why wait for some scientific future to come true when there is an >> immediate need. There is this twenty-five hundred-year-old >> tradition that has been working on just such a science of mind. >> From what little I understand they use both rationality and special >> introspective techniques. To remind you: >> >> >> "Upon first learning of mental states described in traditions outside of >> one's, there is a natural tendency to seek counterparts in one's own >> background or in the knowledge of one's native culture. For many people it >> si difficult to acknowledge the possibility that the attainment of >> quiescence may have no counterpart in Western civilization, that the >> contemplative science of ancient India made advances that the West has not >> duplicated. Especially over the past five hundred years, the West has made >> tremendous advances in developing physical instruments to aid us in >> exploring the world. Such research instruments have enabled us to probe >> deeply into the nature of physical phenomena, but they offer no direct >> access to mental events. The mind is the only instrument capable of >> examining all types of natural events --- including both the physical and >> mental. But in terms of refining human awareness in the development of >> stability and clarity as described above, Western civllization has made no >> progress since the Scientific Revolution. In this field of contemplative >> science ours is a backward, underdeveloped culture. If we wish to explore >> these Buddhist theories and practices further, we are well advised to >> proceed not with blink faith, but with our full powers of critical >> intelligence. In so doing we follow the advice that the Buddha gave to his >> monks when he counseled: >> >> O monks, sages accept my words after examining them well-- >> like gold after it has been melted, cut and rubbed--but not out >> of devotion [for me]. >> >> (Wallace, B. Alan, 'Choosing Reality, : A Buddhist View of Physics and the >> Mind',2003,pp.198-199) >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 26, 2010, at 12:08 PM, 118 wrote: >> >>> There is some discussion on the use of the subject-object analogy in MOQ >>> discuss, and the attributes of Value to such an analogy. This bears >> inquiry >>> as it could also be interpreted that such an analogy is at the heart of >> many >>> religions. This SO divide brings out the search for the true subjective. >>> Vedic philosophy can be interpreted to have assigned such subjective the >>> “I”. That is the “I” that is witnessing what I appear to be. In such >>> philosophy, that subject is compared to a vibration or a hum. Buddhist >>> thought which arose from such Eastern tradition, used intelligent thought >> to >>> describe the subjective as not inherently existent, and described such a >>> concept with a co-dependent arising metaphor. More recently, Christian >>> metaphors were interpreted by Kierkegaard, who proposed that the ultimate >>> union of the subjective and objective could be achieved through extreme >>> belief and devotion, requiring a leap. Much existentialist >> interpretation >>> followed his lead, including Heidegger’s “Being”. >>> >>> >>> >>> In terms as what is referred to as Western philosophy, it is the opinion >> of >>> this author that the subject-object analogy was converted to an >>> object-object description. That is the comparison of two objects. Plato >>> provided such description by objectifying the subjective. More recently, >>> Descartes further congealed the objectification of subjectivity by >> defining >>> it as thought. The statement “I think, therefore I am” suggests that >>> thinking is the underlying presence of self. Previously, in the Eastern >>> thought described above, thinking was something that the self experienced >> as >>> an object. The description of the objectified sense of thought as the >>> subjective sense of "I" has more recently led to notions by scientific >>> materialism that the self can be explained physically through appropriate >>> investigation into the brain itself. Such studies are ongoing, but >>> difficult. >>> >>> >>> >>> Western considerations of the subject-object confused the subject with >> the >>> object. The metaphorical root of this transition could arise from the >> use >>> of language. As a matter of logistics, language must express the subject >>> object idea as object-object to be useful. Subject-object Metaphysics >>> cannot be discussed without the objectifying of the subjective side. >>> Indeed, the conversion of thought into words is a process of >>> objectification. Is this notion therefore something that creates a >>> roadblock and cannot be truly discussed due to the structure of language, >>> and something that we have no control over? >>> >>> >>> >>> Perhaps, but consider the following thought experiment (science fiction >> as a >>> metaphor). At some time in the future, the principle of telepathy will >> have >>> been understood and harnessed. There would be direct communication >> between >>> brains through some kind of brain-wave harnessing. Would such >> communication >>> be in the form of words? The answer is no. There would be no need for >>> words since entire awareness could be communicated. Words would be >> bypassed >>> so that entire appreciations could be conveyed such as the sense one gets >>> when looking at a painting. This would mean that thoughts as words would >>> not be necessary, and words would only be used temporarily over long >>> distances if there were no other means of communication. Such words >> would >>> be considered primitive communication, like the telegraph is now. >>> >>> >>> >>> The awareness of how words form our subject-object metaphysics is, in the >>> opinion of this author, a fruitful interpretation which is provided as >>> analogy. Through the development of such metaphors it is possible to >>> appreciate (or create) some more meaningful underlying principles (or >>> metaphors). >>> >>> >>> The opinions expressed in this post are the author's and do not >> necessarily >>> represent positions of the MOQ. >>> >>> >>> Mark >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >>> Archives: >>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> >> >> >> ___ >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
