Arlo said to dmb:
I don't know if I understand the root problem here, but I suspect it relates
back to the idea of "interpretative legitimacy". I continue to ask myself why
it was impossible for Bo to simple say "Pirsig says that, I think this, my
ideas are better, and here is why." It was a complete blindness to productive
disagreement and dialogue, and instead evidence nothing but a need to have the
"one true interpretation" of Pirsig, even going so far as to call Pirsig a
"weak-interpreter" of his own ideas!
dmb says:
Yes, it's a very strange thing. Reading always means interpretation but this
flexibility should enrich, not paralyze our communications. In Bo's case, it
was my impression that he had some rather grandiose ideas about the future of
the MOQ and his own role in that future. For Bo the MOQ is bigger or more
important than Pirsig's texts. I think MOQ is just a set of idea, a picture
painted in those pages. It refers to realities that can't be contained on a
page but the MOQ itself is just words in a row and if it's going to have
positive effect in the lives of actual people then the only reasonable thing to
do is make sense of those words and ideas. So I find it quite disturbing that
some people are so flexible with their interpretive "skills" that the meaning
of simple explicit statements are completely reversed. I find it disturbing
that some people think Wikipedia quotes need to be "interpreted" and explained,
as if an encyclopedia entry isn't already an explanation for design
ed for beginners.
Arlo said:
.. My ideas are a refutation of what Pirsig said. I would like to think that,
given the opportunity to present this argument to Pirsig, he may change his
position (this is how evolution occurs), but in the meantime trying to "prove"
Pirsig "really meant" to include non-humans in the social-level, or that my
"interpretation" of the social level is the correct one, is an unproductive,
and frankly dishonest, use of time.
dmb says:
Yes, proving that Pirsig thinks "X" about "A" is completely different from
proving that "A" is the best truth. It would be nice if things like that didn't
need to be explained to anybody. That's not metaphysics. It's just basic logic
and common sense. And as a practical matter, a person would only have to say,
"Pirsig disagrees with this, but I think "P" about "A". No problem.
Everything's clear and we're still talking.
Arlo said:
I also think this is fallout from the "Intellect=SOM" paradigm. You, the "evil,
deluded, conniving, blind, acerdimic-SOMist", are taking the brunt of the
animosity from a crowd that aggressively pursues an anti-intellectual agenda.
I've said before that I think Bo's "SOL" had produced quite a strange lot of
bedfellows, but the common theme is one where "intellect" is to be aggressively
considered (in nearly every form) "the enemy". ...
dmb says:
Hmmm. That's true and it make sense. A kind of lightning rod effect.
Arlo:
...I think Marsha does this out of a effort to make intellect subservient to
the aesthetic, the code of art, and I think in many ways draws back to the
romantic/classic rift in ZMM. From what I can tell, rather than resolve the
conflict via integration (as Pirsig does), Marsha demotes intellect to "classic
rationality", and elevates "romantic understanding" to the "code of art". You,
then, are the "classic rationalist", stuck in the cold, grey, lifeless world of
analyses and relationships and parts and components, and she is the "romantic
artist" (often an integration with Lila), and so her understanding must be
deeper than yours. When I read her responses to you, this makes perfect sense.
YOU don't get it because you are classic square, a shallow intellectual
concerned with hierarchies and analysis, but SHE gets it because she is the
romantic artist who drums and paints and posts poetry.
dmb says:
I see what you mean and it mostly works. But she was a big fan of Krimel's
squareness and he always accused me of being a romantic. Stuff like that and
the fact that I'm not as nice as you, I'd just say Marsha does what she can do
make a virtue of air-headedness.
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