dmb, It sounds like you are explaining that you like your philosophic explanation of reality to include a dynamic aspect. If not, please explain the exact point of this post and how the quotes support your position.
Marsha On Dec 17, 2010, at 2:19 PM, david buchanan wrote: > > Gents, I'm not changing the subject. But I'm going to approach it from a > different angle and dispense with the polemics for a change too. > > Up to a point, there is an affinity between James's image (the human snake > coils over everything), the neo-pragmatic slogan (it's language all the way > down), and Pirsig's sand sorting analogy: > > "To understand what he was trying to do it's necessary to see that PART of > the landscape, INSEPARABLE from it, which MUST be understood, is a figure in > the middle of it, sorting sand into piles. To see the landscape without > seeing this figure is not to see the landscape at all. To reject that part of > the Buddha that attends to the analysis of motorcycles is to miss the Buddha > entirely. ... About the Buddha that exists independently of any analytic > thought much has been said - some would say TOO much, and would question any > attempt to add to it. But about the Buddha that exists WITHIN analytic > thought, and GIVES THAT ANALYTIC THOUGHT ITS DIRECTION, virtually nothing has > been said, and there are historic reasons for this. But history keeps > happening, and it seems no harm and maybe some positive good to add to our > historical heritage with some talk in this area of discourse." (ZAMM, p. 83 > (Emphasis is Pirsig's)) > > dmb continues: > The Buddha that exists WITHIN analytic thought. This is what's interesting. > In Lila, this notion will become the operation of Dynamic Quality within the > scientific process itself, the co-operation of DQ and intellectual static > quality. But in ZAMM Pirsig is not yet using such terms and yet his central > aim to to expand and improve rationality by re-integrating "Quality" into it > from the ground up. This Buddha talk is not aimed at converting anyone to > Buddhism anymore than his comparisons between "Quality" and the Tao. What > he's trying to do is expand rationality or intellect. > > > "No, he did nothing for Quality or the Tao. What benefited was reason. He > showed a way by which reason may be expanded to include elements that have > previously been unassimilable and thus have been considered irrational." > (ZAMM, p. 257) > > "Quality is the Buddha. Quality is scientific reality. Quality is the goal of > Art. It remains to work these concepts out into a practical, down-to-earth > context, and for this there is nothing more practical or down-to-earth than > what I have been talking about all along - the repair of old motorcycle." > (ZAMM, p. 276) > > "I want to show that that classic pattern of rationality can be tremendously > improved, expanded and made far more effective through the formal recognition > of Quality in its operation." (ZAMM, p. 278) > > "The difference between a good mechanic and a bad one, like the difference > between a good mathematician and a bad one, is precisely this ability to > SELECT the good facts from the bad ones on the basis of quality. .. I think > that it will be found that a formal acknowledgment of the role of Quality in > the scientific process doesn't destroy the empirical vision at all. It > expands it, strengthens it and brings it far closer to actual scientific > practice." (ZAMM, p. 281-2) > > "... Dynamic Quality [is] the value-force that chooses an elegant > mathematical solution to a laborious one, or a brilliant experiment over a > confusing, inconclusive one ... Dynamic value is an integral part of > science. It is the cutting edge of scientific progress itself." (LILA, p. > 366) > > dmb resumes: > I take these examples literally. The mechanic, the mathematician, the > scientist and philosophers are all working within systems of rationality. > They're all doing intellectual work within the limits of language and reason. > But Pirsig is keen to get at "the Buddha that exists within analytic thought, > and gives that analytic thought its direction". This move solves a whole > slough of philosophical problems, but I think the main idea here is to > improve actual mechanics, scientists and philosophers. It's about bringing > all your faculties to bear and a deep engagement with whatever you're doing. > It is aimed at down to earth stuff, which a lofty and worthy goal. It's also > exceedingly sane, because that's where we live; practical, everyday reality. > > And that, gents, is why I object to the neo-pragmatic slogan. Pirsig agrees > that our understanding of the world is a pile of analogies BUT he also says > that Quality is the generator of this mythos, guides the train that pulls the > boxcars full of analogies. The important idea here is that this central term > (Quality in the first book and Dynamic Quality in the second book) is outside > of language and outside of the mythos. This value-force is pre-intellectual > and yet he's asserting "the formal recognition of Quality" within > intellectual operations. That's what radical empiricism does. It makes the > dynamic a crucial phase in the overall cognitive process. It explains the > relations between the dynamic and static phases of experience as aspects of a > single, co-operative process. This "formal acknowledgment of the role of > Quality in the scientific process doesn't destroy the empirical vision at > all. It expands it, strengthens it and brings it far closer to actual > scientific practi ce > ." > > Again, I take the slogan to be a negative epistemological statement. It > doesn't say the universe is made of words. It says that we can't get outside > of language in an epistemological sense. It says our truths can only be > justified within language and by language. But Pirsig is saying there is > something outside of language that IS epistemologically important, that is > the generator of language and this is a part of experience too. One of the > ways he uses to show that Quality is real by showing how the world can't > function normally without it and trying to effect a repair job on a mode of > rationality that functions badly without it. Rationality itself is the bike > he's working on and fixing it entails a formal acknowledgment of the role of > Quality in the overall cognitive process. > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org/md/archives.html ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
