On Jan 5, 2011, at 5:59 AM, [email protected] wrote: > Marsha, > > I will clean up my questions. > > >>>>>> >>>>>> Marsha: >>>>>> I am a collection of ever-changing, interdependent, inorganic, >>>>>> biological, social and intellectual static patterns of value entangled >>>>>> within a field of DQ. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> [Tim] >>>>> Marsha, I like the update to 'entangled within a...", but I think that >>>>> 'field' might bring in associations that you don't intend (EM field...). >>>> >>>> Marsha: >>>> John is responsible for the 'entanglement' update. >>> >>> [Tim] >>> by 'John', then, you mean that pattern within yourself which you call >>> 'John' for pragmatic reasons, so as not to lead to too much confusion, >>> right? >> >> Marsha: >> Right. John, too, is a collection of patterns. I've probably bumped >> into >> only a very few. > > [Tim] > the key part of this question was: *within yourself*. 'John' is > collection of patterns within the collection that is you. You say: "I > am a collection of ... patterns [snippage]"; and within this collection > is a sub-collection you have called 'John' for pragmatic reasons (or > whatnot). Is this right?
Marsha: The collection isn't laid out in front of me like a bucket of legos. Maybe the missing word is flow. So back to "I am a flow of ever-changing..." or better yet "I am a flow of bits and pieces of ever-changing..." There are bits and pieces of pattern that are associated with the name John (for pragmatic purposes,) but... they are not John. I have never seen, smelled, heard, tasted or touched John. All I know of John has been conceptually constructed with bits and pieces of pattern in reaction to reading his words. > The point of this is, another way, you > recognize the pattern you have called 'John' as internal to you, in line > with your admittal that you are not aware of any pattern that is not > included in this collection - which collection we call Marsha for > pragmatic reasons (or whatnot). I guess? >>>>> [Tim] Question 1: are you / can you be, aware of anything that is not >>>>> included >>>>> in this 'collection'? >>>> >>>> Marsha: >>>> Aware? My answer is no. There may very well be all sorts of >>>> unrecognized >>>> patterns included in the collection but outside awareness means outside >>>> awareness. That would be an excellent reason, though to cultivate a >>>> more >>>> subtle awareness. >>> >>> [Tim] >>> yes, outside awareness means outside awareness. But on the primary >>> front, just to be sure, do you hold any belief, hope, or expectation of >>> a pattern external to the above mentioned 'collection'? >> >> Marsha: >> Just to be sure, I don't hold any-thing. These patterns seem to process >> through >> consciousness: ever-changing and interconnected. By expectation of an >> external >> pattern do you mean a reified fantasy. Not lately. If I've >> misunderstood, you will >> need to re-explain your point and question. > > [Tim] > fair enough, weak-ish effort on my part. Perhaps I have gotten at my > point best in the above. It was the same point. But... > > let me ask rather: > > part a: you can account for the word 'expectation' in some intellectual > way, right? Only in a abstracted, reified intellectual way divorced from all other relative, interdependent processes. > For instance, and I wonder how you would say this: Amidst > the collection of patterns that is Marsha, has there been, from time to > time, an intellectual (or other classification if you prefer) pattern of > value that we might call 'expectation of xxxx' (again, for similar > pragmatic reasons that have permitted us to call Marsha, and to call > intellectual, social, biological, or inorganic, etc.)? Within the confines of "intellectual," does the above explain this? Or are you asking if I have also imagined inorganic, biological and social patterns associated with the label John? > For instance, an expectation that you will eat your favorite dinner on your > birthday this week? OR the like. > > then, assuming yes, part b: Amidst the collection of patterns that is > Marsha, is there now (or has there been from time to time) an > intellectual (or other classification if you prefer) pattern of value, > of expectation, which expectation is that there is, or should be, some > pattern of value that is not included *within* the collection you/we > call Marsha? I don't see how I can imagine a pattern outside past experience. Maybe I can discover a dynamic re-combination, or maybe I'll be hit by a original dynamic event. Please, Tim, don't ask me to explain how consciousness works unless you are prepared to see that I win a Nobel prize. In other words, you are asking me to speculate. I can watch patterns flow through consciousness; what happens before and after I haven't a clue. I'm a bug, not a genius or accomplished yogi. > Tim What do you think? Marsha ___ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
