On 7/1/11 3:35 AM, "MarshaV" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> On Jul 1, 2011, at 4:40 AM, MarshaV wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jul 1, 2011, at 3:49 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> 30 jun 2011 kl. 21.07 Marsha wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Jun 28, 2011, at 9:55 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for your humble answer.
>>>>>
>>>>> 28 jun 2011 kl. 15.41 Marsho wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 28, 2011, at 1:40 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi Marsha
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 27 jun 2011 kl. 18.44 sMarsha wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not to be repeating myself, I neither accept the notion of freewill,
>>>>>>>> nor reject it. Same goes with determinism and causation. I accept
>>>>>>>> that these are conventional (static) notions, but not Ultimately real.
>>>>>>>> While living within a conventional culture it seems wise to sustain
>>>>>>>> social and biological patterns whenever necessary for one will be held
>>>>>>>> responsible to that level's "moral" code (laws and punishment. )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Even if you neither accept nor reject it. I really would like to
>>>>>>> understand what you mean with "The notion of Free Will". Please.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jan-Anders
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It means whatever it conventional means. What is the meaning of the
>>>>>> pattern named Justice? How would you describe its meaning? How would
>>>>>> you describe the meaning of any pattern. I understand static patterns
>>>>>> to represent a collection of interdependent, ever-changing particular
>>>>>> momentary events (process) which constantly change as they arise, abide
>>>>>> and pass away: and as they are continually altered by an individual?s
>>>>>> static history and the dynamics of the event. I have mentioned before
>>>>>> that I tend also to think of patterns, pattern(x) for instance, to
>>>>>> include all-that-is opposite-from-non-pattern(x). That may include a
>>>>>> dictionary definition. - The horns of a rabbit might be a static notion
>>>>>> or pattern.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How well do you think you understand my explanation?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Marsha
>>>>>
>>>>> Not really sure. You intend to sell a Norwegian Blue Parrot?
>>>>>
>>>>> Try again, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jan-Anders
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Jan-Anders,
>>>>
>>>> Within this conventional reality, I tend to think of patterns of value not
>>>> as fixed or
>>>> frozen or reified, but as events or processes, much more fluid and
>>>> relational.
>>>> Defining a spov as all that is opposite-from-non-pattern keeps them closer
>>>> to
>>>> experience in the conventional sense. imho
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Marsha
>>>
>>> Hi Marsha
>>>
>>> I wonder if you remember my earlier posts some year ago when I described how
>>> we can prolong the Kantian questioning of the perceptions that we got and
>>> how it is separated from the the object (a table) per se?
>>>
>>> We can put another table upon the first table and find that there are things
>>> that we can say about the table per se as it has a RELATION to the other
>>> table and that it is this relation between them that is undeniable and
>>> objectively exists as we can prove it by comparing them to each other.
>>> Positivism.. comparing, measuring, creating a relation to a standard ruler
>>> or something like that. This is also what Descartes did when he put his own
>>> thinking in RELATION to his own thinking and found that to make a relation
>>> there must exist real relative objects. Cogito ergo sum...
>>>
>>> The relation between fixed patterns are the interesting thing, not so much
>>> the patterns per se. But the patterns are important in the same way as
>>> letters and combinations of letters are making words and sentences. Just
>>> because the meaning of a word or a sentence can be discussed and make people
>>> laugh doesn't mean that also the letters themselves have to be funny.
>>>
>>> Quality is very interesting just as static patterns. Dynamic patters like
>>> evolution and growth, drama and soap or just normal living in either a
>>> romantic or classic view, conscious or unconscious, about art, arete,
>>> quality, are ways of experiencing and better understanding The Quality. Our
>>> goal is to better understand and dance with Quality. RMP's contribution with
>>> the MOQ and the 4 levels are very useful, isn't it?
>>>
>>> May I?
>>>
>>> Right? Left? East?
>>>
>>> Jan-Anders
>>
>>
>> Greetings Jan-Anders,
>>
>> Off the top of my head... No way do I experience patterns as a fixed ideals.
>> They are ever-changing, impermanent and relative. Another reason I like the
>> all that is opposite-from-non-pattern(x) is because it represents a whole.
>> Using justice again, both the foreground (justice) and the background
>> (non-justice) are present. One is less likely to isolate or privilege the
>> foreground over the background, and also less likely to substantiate the
>> foreground (justice). The relationships are always present.
>>
>> Yes, the four levels are extremely useful. But for me the emphasis is how to
>> break the natural tendency to reify. The subject-object habit needs to be,
>> at least, loosened. Replacing the word object with the word pattern just
>> doesn't cut it. Of course this opposite-from-non-pattern strategy is still
>> an intellectual exercise, and needs experience to reinforce it. Meditation.
>> imho As far as letters go, A, whether it be a letter, a word or a concept,
>> is always in relation to non-A; that's whether the relationship is
>> acknowledged or not. The either/or-subject/object way of defining the world
>> is expanded.
>>
>>
>> Marsha
>>
>>
>> ___
>
>
> J-A,
>
> To put it more firmly, I find nothing to exist that is fixed, discrete or
> permanent, not even in the nature of ghostly patterns
>
>
> Marsha
Hi Marsha,
I agree Nothing and Existence cancel each other out. One is important
metaphysically as well as mathematically.
Joe
>
> ___
>
>
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