Hi Mark

Sorry to make you disappointed but I am no Dutch, I am Swedish. You can find me 
on Youtube, search for Jananderss. The name Jan-Anders is greek and would be 
translated to First Man in english. Altough I've got an elder brother so 
actually I was the second son. I am glad my parents didn't call me Parcifal. A 
good example that shows that B doesn't strictly follow A. Which is 
characteristic of human free will. 

One characteristic of humanity separate from other organic species is that 
their kids does not follow their parents habits. If human children would  try 
to perfectly imitate their parents like buffalo calves or young chickens do, 
then humanity still would be climbing trees or wandering around along the 
border between land and the sea eating raw fish, seeds and carrots. And there 
would not be thousands of different fundamentalistic churches of unreason on 
Earth.

Humanity doesn't follow deterministic laws even if many would like it to be so 
to feel more safe and ensured. Free will entail to some extent that not 
everyones behaviour is statistically predictable which for some people is a 
quite worrying issue. There will always be some freaks out there that will 
perform Unnatural Acts and come up with Mutated Mind stuff. Like Pirsig, Zappa, 
Einstein or Planck.

Of course there are time. Time is the space around events that makes events 
happen. Change is the ultimate evidence for the existence of time. 

The events at the 4th level are like game rules, art or just music. It is so 
fking fun to just play around. It was nice to see that you had some quality 
experience from playing basket ball. If you don't like playing with the ball 
maybe you could try playing some music or just sing a simple song. You can't do 
that if you aren't equipped with free will and with a certain amount of 
available time, do you? Frank Zappa claimed "You can't do that on stage 
anymore" because what he did is already in the past, it is history. But we can 
do something else. That is why Music is the best. This is also why I don't 
believe in mindfucking yourself.

I am having  a real good time following this forums mindbouncing. David 
Buchanan, Matt Kundert and Horse are really sharp. I do like Marshas buffoonery 
too which completes the picture af MD filling up the casting for Commedia 
dell'arte. Most of the contributors in MD seem to be searching for THE one and 
only Truth. But there is not One Truth. Value is caused by more truths. Events 
are a result from a division between the momentual reality and what it could 
be. Quality experience is the meeting between how it is and how it it could be. 
Value is created by the division between these two. The bigger the difference, 
the stronger power or will to make a change. Logic condtions separates the 
possible from the impossible. The intercourse between different events creates 
the individual pragmatic value of the other event. Sue likes Bob but Bob is 
more interested in Lila...

I am working on a little pamflet which I plan to be ready about the end of next 
year. It is about quality and is based upon the lowest common denominator of 
the 4 levels. In fact this is another set of four; time and the meeting of 3 
independent conditions which together creates value. The true moralic 
imperative we could call it.

Beware of your mind, it may keep you alive and fooling around!

Enjoy

Jan-Anders



6 jul 2011 Mark wrote:

> Hi J-A,
> As I recall, you are Dutch.  So, based on my once fluent Dutch, your
> name means "other than John".  This would mean that you are
> "Not-John".  So the saying "Not this, Not that" should be easy for
> your to grasp.  But, I know, it is hard.  It is not a riddle, or some
> mystical truth.  It is not something beyond this or that.  It doesn't
> even relate to this or that, and it is not the opposite of these
> things.  It is not Nothing either.  Which one would think makes it
> Something, but it is not.
> 
> It is not to get you to get something, like some short commercial that
> we are so fond of here in the US.  It is not professed by some
> Hollywood star, or superstar athlete as the latest in enlightenment.
> It is quite simple and not some deep truth passed on through the ages
> of time.  So, Not-John, what is it?
> 
> More below.
> 
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Jan-Anders Andersson
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Hi Mark
>> 
>> 4 jul 2011 kl. 21.04 Mark wrote:
>> 
>>> It is clear that there are many ways to define Quality, but no way to
>>> describe it. ?That is, that there is no way to wrap Quality up with
>>> words. ?The problem with good wrapping, is that it hides what is being
>>> wrapped. ?And, once wrapped, it is difficult to unwrap without
>>> extensive personal training by the wrapper. ?The same can be said for
>>> encoding secret messages.
>>> 
>>> As a definition amongst many, one can equate Quality with Will. ?Both
>>> are active nouns, and both imply direction. ?The quality of things
>>> denotes their appearance. ?This a world of appearances which means it
>>> is a world of Quality. ?Will is also expression. ?Both do not require
>>> for there to be something that is expressed, they arise without cause.
>>> 
>>> For clarification, I will present what I mean by Will. ?Human will is
>>> a primary feature of our being. ?It is what delivers our
>>> consciousness. ?It provides drive, resolve, and intent. ?It creates
>>> direction for each of us, and gives us the propensity to change
>>> direction. ?It lies outside of determinism, and is often termed
>>> "Free". ?It gives us the capacity to live outside the boundaries of
>>> determined direction. ?Besides humans, all things have Will. ?A river
>>> may express it as a rushing through a valley. ?A metal may display a
>>> resolve to remain together and not scatter freely. ?Predators display
>>> a will to catch, and preys are equally willful in escaping. ?The sun
>>> attempts to pull the planets into itself, and the planets are just as
>>> willful in remaining free, thus resulting in an long game until one
>>> wins. ?So, that is how I am using will. ?It is not obstinance,
>>> wishful-thinking, or a promise made.
>>> 
>>> The Will to Survive, or the Will to Die are two ends of the same
>>> thing, that is Will. ?Therefore, Will and Quality are two words for
>>> the same thing. ?Anything with Will is also with Quality. ?Anything
>>> with Quality, denotes Will.
>>> 
>>> In Chapter 28, Phaedrus is reading about Greek excellence and is
>>> fascinated by "duty to self", this can also be construed as Will. ?He
>>> goes on to realize that Quality was present before anything. ?We are
>>> born as Will, there is nothing else, just pure Will. ?This then begins
>>> to change from the first minute after birth. ?Where was it before
>>> that? ?Or as the Buddhist would say, "What did your face look like
>>> before you were born?"
>>> 
>>> And, so, I have come to the end of my exposition. ?Any comments?
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> Mark
>> 
>> "What did your face look like before you were born?"
> 
> [Mark]
> Yes, what did your face look like before you were born?  It is a
> simple question which can be answered simply.  All it takes is a
> little thought.  What did you look like before this lifetime?  Travel
> back in your mind, and you will see.  Just sit with it for as long as
> it takes.  Peek through the curtains, or just imagine it sitting right
> next to you, less than a nanometer away, kind of like seeing double
> overlapping you's.  Just shift a very very little to your right and
> see what it feels like.  This is not magic or fantasy, or religion, or
> dogma, or mysticism, or politics, or coercion, or exploitation, or
> anything like that.  It is just you.  You gotta love it!
>> 
>> Not this and not that. ?:-)
>> 
>> More seriously I would search for the lowest common denominator of the 4 
>> levels.
>> Which is Quality.
>> 
>> There is a way to direct experience of The Quality:
>> Take a basket ball, use your hand and bounce it to the floor. You can 
>> experience how Quality works when you find what force (Will), tempo 
>> (pattern) and the joy (pragmatic meaning) is needed to make it happen.
>> Atoms are energy in a kind of bounce with differnet patterns. organic events 
>> are another higher kind of bounce. Societies are even more complicated 
>> events with enrgy, cultural pattern and Yield. Intellectual bounces are the 
>> events of the 4th level.
> 
> [Mark]
> This reminds me when I was a superstar basket ball player.  This
> wasn't hard since I went to the Leysin American School in Switzerland
> and b-ball was not their specialty, it was more like rock-climbing.
> But anyway, sometimes on the court I would get into the "Zone" (what
> is the Dutch for that?).  Me, the ball, and the basket would all
> become directly connected, and I could not miss a shot.  Yes, this is
> Quality of the dynamic variety.  I have often said that DQ lies in the
> moment.  It is as simple as that.  Live in the moment (I mean really
> in the moment) and you live as DQ.  There are no hands, no legs, no
> distance, no basket.  There is no time since time does not exist in
> the moment.  It only exists moment to moment.
> 
> Dag,
> Mark Smit
>> 
>> Bounce bounce
>> 
>> Jan-Anders
>> 
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