Ah, I see. There's a lot to be said for reading old things that I haven't had time to look at before. I learned new things from the interchange below between mark the b-ball star of switzerland and mr. not-not-john.
On Wed, Jul 6, 2011 at 4:55 AM, Jan-Anders Andersson <[email protected]> wrote: One characteristic of humanity separate from other organic species is that their kids does not follow their parents habits. If human children would try to perfectly imitate their parents like buffalo calves or young chickens do, then humanity still would be climbing trees or wandering around along the border between land and the sea eating raw fish, seeds and carrots. And there would not be thousands of different fundamentalistic churches of unreason on Earth. John: I'd like to argue this with you, but I find that I can't. While I do believe that humans share many social aspects in common with mammals, I believe that intellectual patterns are unique to man. And disobedience is an intellectual pattern. What?!!! I never thought of it that way before, but its absolutely true. In order to disobey - as opposed to merely misunderstanding or adapting - (which animals do all the time) you have to conceptualize yourself and other and some wanted goal outside of your reality, in order to disobey. Fascinating, J-A, because as a product of one of them there myriadical fundamentalists institutions who was saved by Pirsig, I was always fascinated with the story in the garden and the fruit of knowledge of good and evil being a metaphor for SOM. But seeing it connected directly to disobedience, like you did here, opens up a whole new facet of understanding for my mythical life. Mythical life? Oh yes, I have a quite rich mythical life. Just the one tho'. I know I could never compete with Thou. J-A: The events at the 4th level are like game rules, art or just music. It is so fking fun to just play around. John: Finite players play within boundaries, infinite players play with boundaries. That's what the 4th level can do for ya. You can shoot beyond the intellectual. Three-Point-Attempt! Swish. Later, (probably much later) John J-A: I am having a real good time following this forums mindbouncing. David Buchanan, Matt Kundert and Horse are really sharp. I do like Marshas buffoonery too which completes the picture af MD filling up the casting for Commedia dell'arte. Most of the contributors in MD seem to be searching for THE one and only Truth. But there is not One Truth. Value is caused by more truths. Events are a result from a division between the momentual reality and what it could be. Quality experience is the meeting between how it is and how it it could be. Value is created by the division between these two. The bigger the difference, the stronger power or will to make a change. Logic condtions separates the possible from the impossible. The intercourse between different events creates the individual pragmatic value of the other event. Sue likes Bob but Bob is more interested in Lila... I am working on a little pamflet which I plan to be ready about the end of next year. It is about quality and is based upon the lowest common denominator of the 4 levels. In fact this is another set of four; time and the meeting of 3 independent conditions which together creates value. The true moralic imperative we could call it. Beware of your mind, it may keep you alive and fooling around! Enjoy Jan-Anders 6 jul 2011 Mark wrote: > Hi J-A, > As I recall, you are Dutch. So, based on my once fluent Dutch, your > name means "other than John". This would mean that you are > "Not-John". So the saying "Not this, Not that" should be easy for > your to grasp. But, I know, it is hard. It is not a riddle, or some > mystical truth. It is not something beyond this or that. It doesn't > even relate to this or that, and it is not the opposite of these > things. It is not Nothing either. Which one would think makes it > Something, but it is not. > > It is not to get you to get something, like some short commercial that > we are so fond of here in the US. It is not professed by some > Hollywood star, or superstar athlete as the latest in enlightenment. > It is quite simple and not some deep truth passed on through the ages > of time. So, Not-John, what is it? > > More below. > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 1:22 PM, Jan-Anders Andersson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> Hi Mark >> >> 4 jul 2011 kl. 21.04 Mark wrote: >> >>> It is clear that there are many ways to define Quality, but no way to >>> describe it. ?That is, that there is no way to wrap Quality up with >>> words. ?The problem with good wrapping, is that it hides what is being >>> wrapped. ?And, once wrapped, it is difficult to unwrap without >>> extensive personal training by the wrapper. ?The same can be said for >>> encoding secret messages. >>> >>> As a definition amongst many, one can equate Quality with Will. ?Both >>> are active nouns, and both imply direction. ?The quality of things >>> denotes their appearance. ?This a world of appearances which means it >>> is a world of Quality. ?Will is also expression. ?Both do not require >>> for there to be something that is expressed, they arise without cause. >>> >>> For clarification, I will present what I mean by Will. ?Human will is >>> a primary feature of our being. ?It is what delivers our >>> consciousness. ?It provides drive, resolve, and intent. ?It creates >>> direction for each of us, and gives us the propensity to change >>> direction. ?It lies outside of determinism, and is often termed >>> "Free". ?It gives us the capacity to live outside the boundaries of >>> determined direction. ?Besides humans, all things have Will. ?A river >>> may express it as a rushing through a valley. ?A metal may display a >>> resolve to remain together and not scatter freely. ?Predators display >>> a will to catch, and preys are equally willful in escaping. ?The sun >>> attempts to pull the planets into itself, and the planets are just as >>> willful in remaining free, thus resulting in an long game until one >>> wins. ?So, that is how I am using will. ?It is not obstinance, >>> wishful-thinking, or a promise made. >>> >>> The Will to Survive, or the Will to Die are two ends of the same >>> thing, that is Will. ?Therefore, Will and Quality are two words for >>> the same thing. ?Anything with Will is also with Quality. ?Anything >>> with Quality, denotes Will. >>> >>> In Chapter 28, Phaedrus is reading about Greek excellence and is >>> fascinated by "duty to self", this can also be construed as Will. ?He >>> goes on to realize that Quality was present before anything. ?We are >>> born as Will, there is nothing else, just pure Will. ?This then begins >>> to change from the first minute after birth. ?Where was it before >>> that? ?Or as the Buddhist would say, "What did your face look like >>> before you were born?" >>> >>> And, so, I have come to the end of my exposition. ?Any comments? >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Mark >> >> "What did your face look like before you were born?" > > [Mark] > Yes, what did your face look like before you were born? It is a > simple question which can be answered simply. All it takes is a > little thought. What did you look like before this lifetime? Travel > back in your mind, and you will see. Just sit with it for as long as > it takes. Peek through the curtains, or just imagine it sitting right > next to you, less than a nanometer away, kind of like seeing double > overlapping you's. Just shift a very very little to your right and > see what it feels like. This is not magic or fantasy, or religion, or > dogma, or mysticism, or politics, or coercion, or exploitation, or > anything like that. It is just you. You gotta love it! >> >> Not this and not that. ?:-) >> >> More seriously I would search for the lowest common denominator of the 4 levels. >> Which is Quality. >> >> There is a way to direct experience of The Quality: >> Take a basket ball, use your hand and bounce it to the floor. You can experience how Quality works when you find what force (Will), tempo (pattern) and the joy (pragmatic meaning) is needed to make it happen. >> Atoms are energy in a kind of bounce with differnet patterns. organic events are another higher kind of bounce. Societies are even more complicated events with enrgy, cultural pattern and Yield. Intellectual bounces are the events of the 4th level. > > [Mark] > This reminds me when I was a superstar basket ball player. This > wasn't hard since I went to the Leysin American School in Switzerland > and b-ball was not their specialty, it was more like rock-climbing. > But anyway, sometimes on the court I would get into the "Zone" (what > is the Dutch for that?). Me, the ball, and the basket would all > become directly connected, and I could not miss a shot. Yes, this is > Quality of the dynamic variety. I have often said that DQ lies in the > moment. It is as simple as that. Live in the moment (I mean really > in the moment) and you live as DQ. There are no hands, no legs, no > distance, no basket. There is no time since time does not exist in > the moment. It only exists moment to moment. > > Dag, > Mark Smit >> >> Bounce bounce >> >> Jan-Anders Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
