118, I took that from LC annotation #60
This is difficult to untangle. Bohr’s “observation” and the MOQ’s “quality event” are the same, but the contexts are different. The difference is rooted in the historic chicken-and- egg controversy over whether matter came first and produces ideas, or ideas come first and produce what we know as matter. The MOQ says that Quality comes first which produces ideas which produce what we know as matter. The scientific community that has produced Complementarity, almost invariably presumes that matter comes first and produces ideas. However, as if to further the confusion, the MOQ says that the idea that matter comes first is a high quality idea! I think Bohr would say that philosophic idealism (i.e. ideas before matter) is a viable philosophy since complementarity allows multiple contradictory views to coexist. On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 3:57 PM, 118 <[email protected]> wrote: > Steve, > This is not a chicken or egg scenario. Humans create human ideas, > just like bees create honey. Honey did not create bees. If you think > this may be a possibility, then you need to define your metaphysics > which makes this possible. I would find this very interesting, and I > could contribute to support your idea. Ideas are drawn from an > interpretation of Quality. Yes, Quality comes first, but not as the > human form of Quality; not the Quality concept that we discuss in this > forum. We simply take our apparition of it, same as our apparition of > the Tao. We can only discuss these things as the human variety. We > can certainly be aware of much more than this, just don't put it into > words. > > Please do not speak of the presumptions of the Scientific Community as > if you know something about it. All you know is your interpretation > of the Scientific Community which you may have got from MSNBC for all > I know. As such it is very limited and very misinformed. You are > talking of theories from many years ago, haven't you read something > new lately outside of Wiki? What kind of "Ape Ideas" are you talking > about? This is complete nonsense and you know it! I have come to > expect better from you. > > The idea of an ape is a concept from the Social Level. Doesn't > anybody get this??? Words are used for humans for form societies, > nothing more! Words have no purpose when one is falling down a > ravine. The MoQ states that humans create ideas; such ideas spread in > the Social Level and become conventions. Conventions cannot exist > without a group of people who agree on the concept. If Apes are a > high quality idea then we agree on such a thing. If you do not agree > then you are not part of that group. Nothing wrong with this, in fact > I find your disagreement with Pirsig healthy. > > Cheers, > Mark > > On Sat, Aug 27, 2011 at 12:01 PM, Steven Peterson > <[email protected]> wrote: >> To paraphrase RMP...The difference is rooted in the historic >> chicken-and-egg controversy over whether Apes came first and produced >> ideas, or ideas come first and produce what we know as Apes. The MOQ >> says that Quality comes first which produces ideas which produce what >> we know as Apes. The scientific community almost invariably presumes >> that Apes come first and produce ideas. However, as if to further the >> confusion, the MOQ says that the idea that Apes come first is a high >> quality idea! Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org/md/archives.html
